Progress without a plan

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Progress without a plan

Post by Jonathan on 24.03.13 13:56

I have a question to put on the table, looking for your opinions.

Why do you think that so many people seem to have major problems with following a spiritual path or learning magick without having proper guidance or without access to a strict system with a progress ladder?

I can understand the benefits from an established occult structure but I can also see cons in such approach. By following any procedural system you're treading a road planned by someone else. What works for someone might not work for you. I know great techniques that have produced results for me but not for my friends and saw the other way around happening as well. While having a structured learning system surely makes everything so much easier, after all we don't have to sweat reading every book out there, experimenting a lot and stumbling upon dead ends ever so often, it also takes creativity away from us and a process that I find essential in the occult, which is the natural progress of learning which leads us to the path that is better attuned with our souls.

So while I can see its benefits and why people chose such teachings, it also troubles me when some will completely refuse to learn anything that's not plain out structured and easy. Best things aren't easy and obvious.

This is just my opinion but I'm curious about what others may think.
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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by Divine 277 on 24.03.13 14:39

I m guessing there is teachings in both ... maybe find a middle road ...
How ever I am of the understanding that one can learn something from everything .. so I mite not be the best person to answer this question . ( going to ponder about it, when I take a bath Wink )
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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by 8lou1 on 25.03.13 8:15

first whats easy for one doesnt have to be easy for others Wink

when i walk alone i sometimes deeply miss a structure that can controll my feelings of being delusional and i start searching for structure. preferable an outside source so i can identify with it and not feel so crazy. when those feelings fade and i feel sane and grounded again i start looking for what is me in that structure and by choosing and dismissing i walk my own path again with new tools learned.

so i guess i use both learning paths, simultaneously hating and loving them...



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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by Kalb on 25.03.13 12:39

“Alice: Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?
The Cheshire Cat: That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.
Alice: I don't much care where.
The Cheshire Cat: Then it doesn't much matter which way you go.
Alice: ...So long as I get somewhere.
The Cheshire Cat: Oh, you're sure to do that, if only you walk long enough.”
Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Jonathan: Sorry, I have no other answer except this brilliant conversation between Alice and the Cat.
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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by 8lou1 on 25.03.13 12:45

hehehehehehe its exactly how i feel kalb, wondering with out a goal then just to wonder. wich to me is quite boring....
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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by Jonathan on 25.03.13 12:52

lol That's one interesting answer Kalb!

The cat looks like this What a Face
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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by Kalb on 25.03.13 17:16

8lou1: I understand you well. In fact, I have something to say.

If we look at the world, we will see many different societies, just look to Europe, America and Africa and you see the vast difference of levels of life, different cultures, different ways of living, In some countries of Africa for example, when someone disappears no one will look, the person is considered "dead" and no one else thinks of her. In Europe, when someone disappears, there is half the world trying to find the missing person. Is important to note that in Africa people are afraid to leave the safe places and people nearby because they can be lost. This is where religion enters, of course, religion is open and subject to interpretations and influences on each of us and has been used to promote and support movements of war and peace, love and hate, which leads us to conclude that religion is used as an instrument ability who dominates. Religion is not the only factor that causes conflicts, there are numerous others, like money. Nowadays, anything you have, you have to pay. If you want to have a guide you will pay if you want have a Master, you will have to pay, if you want to belong to any group, you paid!

Understand Psychology and Neuro-Linguistic Programming you can star understand how your mind works and how people manipulate one each. In fact, most occult writers spend much money in marketing and advertising, then you will realize that their fame has cost them a lot of money. As also gained a lot from his books. Therefore, they used a technique of manipulating, brainwashing. "Buy my book", "you will be master in 60 days", etc. .. etc. .. etc. ...

That's how the world lives .. Asetianism has changed all that. They published their books and did not use any method of advertising, remaining silent leaving students interested in learning go to meet him and when we come into this world we are taught through books. "Be Free and be Yourself" and most people of Run Away from that. Because they don't want Freedom nor want be Themself. They Want Pay! They want be Slaves of their imaginations and dreams.

In Liber Aeternus II.12 (Book Of Orion), there is something very interesting to meditate, it is written that we should break our master and ego because both can lead us to oblivion. It's need to make a drawing? To realize that we choose the path that our soul feels and not others? Nature is in constant evolution, the universe is, the knowledge and the evolution is like the phoenix. In constant change. Nothing is fixed much less the ideas of others.
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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by 8lou1 on 26.03.13 7:33

thank you kalb, youre totally right.

i have had a strange life where i didnt have the opportunity to stand up for myself and that made me a bit strange sometimes. to say the least it made me search for 'masters' and bumb my nose everytime. i so perfectly know who/what i am not....

slowly and with lots of help im taking a different approach to life: to see what i am. its the difference between the glass half empty or half full....

studying the occult didnt start out as a hobby or as an interest, but as a need to survive in the world i live... i know bad intent and black magic can do a lot of harm, i needed to defend my family and myself (wich i sometimes forget;) )

im so glad things are more quiet lately, since i now have the time to be me and i feel strange to myself without having to look over my shoulder all the time expecting an attack. its weird to say the least...

so if i come over a bit strange and in defense mode im sorry its not my intent to distrust everyone and everything im just used to war.


with love,
lou



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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by BellBook&Candle on 18.05.13 15:00

Well I think a lot of people find it difficult for a few different reasons. A major one being loneliness. Although a great many occultists are quite happy and content in their own company, I think there comes a time when they just want to share their experiences with someone who has the capacity to understand and relate.

For my second reason I would like to draw an analogy. There are many people in the world who like to think of themselves as " armchair psychologists". These people like to study psychology and human behavior etc in their own time. An enjoyable pursuit i'm sure. However these "armchair psychologists", as talented and insightful as the may be are not truly qualified in the science of clinical psychology. If an "armchair psychologist" decided to legitimize his or her knowledge by going to university and obtaining a masters degree in psychology then he or she would have a better, well rounded and perhaps less biased view than perhaps they did previously. I think that magickal systems of initiation and training offer something that working alone cannot. A system of consistent feedback from someone already "qualified" and a strong foundation on which to build.

Having said that there can be pitfalls from being part of an organised structure. Some of the occult orders within Europe are very difficult to leave. Should one decide that they have learned enough and would like to move on it's not always possible. A problem that solo practitioners don't have to concern themselves with.
It takes great discipline and strength to truly walk alone.
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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by Jonathan on 18.05.13 15:34

BellBook&Candle wrote:Having said that there can be pitfalls from being part of an organised structure. Some of the occult orders within Europe are very difficult to leave. Should one decide that they have learned enough and would like to move on it's not always possible.
I have heard about this before in what concerns European orders. Very different from the reality here in the US.
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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by Lupus de Umbras on 19.05.13 8:24

For many years I was part of what might be considered a RHP organization.On the whole it was quite a positive experience,as I was given quite a lot of latittude,and progress was up to the individual.However,we were given discourses and a graded initiation system.So in my opinon a mixture of the two is sometimes required;depending on the individual.

We all have our own unique requirements,so the approach will vary.I can see the merits in going it alone and also receiving some feedback and measurement and progress.Life is fluid and and I see nothing wrong in adopting either of the two options if and when required.Ok,we may make apparently poor choices sometimes:but the school of life(and hard knocks) are the greatest teachers.Follow your inner guide.

At present I have a Chaoate approach, which I'm happy with,because it's so random and constantly throws up surprisesPlus,it fits exactly where I am at preset.Howevever if I felt more structure was needed sometime in the future,sure,I would give joining an occult order CAREFUL consideration.
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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by 8lou1 on 27.08.13 5:22

Jonathan wrote:
BellBook&Candle wrote:Having said that there can be pitfalls from being part of an organised structure. Some of the occult orders within Europe are very difficult to leave. Should one decide that they have learned enough and would like to move on it's not always possible.
I have heard about this before in what concerns European orders. Very different from the reality here in the US.
ive been thinking on this a while and why it is this way....and i found a big onion....tastes good, but the smell from my mouth, ugh....

with love,
lou

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Re: Progress without a plan

Post by Lupus de Umbras on 27.08.13 7:21

@8iou1-Your post made me smile.Very Zen-like.Very Happy 
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