Magick or Magic?

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Post by Boogieman on 08.11.18 2:37

Might be the wrong place to ask this since Im new to this forum and don't know how you all are.

I pose the question if you are a practicer of esoteric arts or even just someone who studies them how do you feel about the use of the spelling "Magick" sense it pays homage to Thelema? Assuming your not a member of that "Religion."

After all the use of the term "Magick" created by Crowley, and was made popular by many people who fallowed his teachings is meant to distinguish his practice from others thus suggesting Crowley and the things he did and stood for to be what type of teachings he wanted people to follow?

Me personally I'm against it, and I think it only serves to continue Crowley twisted forms of magic, and not true magic.

Im curious to learn what anyone here thinks of the use of the spelling invented by Crowley vs others.

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Post by Lynskha on 08.11.18 2:43

Why would you say twisted form of magic? Can you sharw your thoughts? And I did not see any introduction, it would be nice of you could let US know a bit about you in the introduction part of this forum. Anyway... Welcome.
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Post by Boogieman on 08.11.18 2:58

I actually didnt see the introduction part of the forum lol.

Well if you study Crowley and Thelema how it came about, why and how he used it, as well as why he was kicked out of the other magical orders and societies he was a part of. From trying to summon and control demons, to the way he treated women . Crowley was all about control and created a religion that perpetrated that control. All about whom he chose to make powerful and not as tho he stood above all others in the world. I know alot of people still defend and him and this and that, but if you look at the bases of what he used his influence for was all self serving and about him and his desire to be a god. Not to mention his drug problems.

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Post by Lynskha on 08.11.18 3:43

You are not considering all the positive  contribution. Would you say Asetianism is a twisted form of magick?
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Post by Nightshade on 08.11.18 4:20

I feel that the term Magick has been adopted by occultists from many different paths and it's definitely not exclusive to Thelemites and the path of Thelema. I see people using it in a context of traditional witchcraft as well as ceremonial magicians. It's just a way to differentiate esoteric practices and metaphysics from stage magic and illusionism so I find that it's a useful word in that sense and no longer associate it with Crowley even though he coined the term.
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Post by Ramla-Meryt on 08.11.18 11:30

I use magick to refer to occult-related discussions and magic to refer to high fantasy-style 'wizards and dragons'-style magic.
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Post by Lynskha on 08.11.18 11:52

Like Nightshade and nachtzehren , the words are used to differentiate esoteric practices and metaphysics from stage magic and illusionism.
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Post by Rhea Kaye on 08.11.18 12:55

I have a rather unpopular opinion in this regard. The Aset Ka uses the term "magick" and I think it looks better. However, if someone is a valid practitioner it won't matter whether they put an extra letter on the end or not. They will be able to use subtle forces regardless. Magick is magic when you look at it from a standpoint that discards the frivolity found in pop culture.
When it comes to metaphysics, I do not accept the practice of stage magicians and commerical psychics as any real form of magic. Discarding their legitimacy opens the phrases up for me- since I do not consider them real magic, I do not bother differentiating between them. I already throw away their false delusion of relevance, so it begins to feel like trying to separate glass from quartz in terms of phrasing. (Rough analogy but bear with me.) One is quite obviously not like the other. Both formed of similar elements but with massively different processes they took to get there, and different science. One has a chaotic molecular pattern, not being useful in energy work, and the other formed a pristine structure over millions of painstaking years, being a valuable amplifying tool in metaphysics with proven relevance. Those who think glass is equivalent to quartz (they're all over the place, claiming manmade smelted quartz aka glass is a good tool) haven't managed to sense the true energy fields of each, and failed to use the right tool properly in energy work. So, a natural barrier is there already.
In my mind I think, why set the two apart when there is already the natural veil of initiation and reality separating them? The two worlds will never merge, simply by natural design. For example, hordes of people claim to be a "real vampire" and despite the usage of an accepted term, as opposed to the flowery LARP-ish word "vampyre", they exhibit glaringly obvious signs of being misguided in ignorance of how vampirism works. And then you could say... Hmm!! If they knew how to sense energy they would be able to see why their x, y, or z theory on almighty vampires makes no bit of sense. The proper word didn't change the lack of proper alignment. The word is a powerful thing indeed but real energy and initiation is infallible, something that must be conquered and seen with a clear Eye.
That being said, I respect the choice of differentiating between the real and the fake with spelling variant. I also understand where people are coming from when they do so.
Concerning Crowley, I see why people would think negatively based on the things you mentioned. That man has had a lot of people worshipping him as supreme. But he had a lot of character flaws. A lot of truly disgusting things he did as well. My standpoint is this: he had the good and the bad within. I think his system is quite valuable to approach and study, keeping diligent balance in mind while reminding oneself that the man was not perfect. Not following him eagerly off the various cliffs he figuratively dove from, but instead striving for understanding over the concepts and teachings he has to offer while using it as a springboard into deeper study.
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Post by Lynskha on 08.11.18 13:33

My standpoint is this: he had the good and the bad within

Exactly. It is like having to see from two different points of view. The man ( the polemic one ) and the occultist ( and wise ) . Some would say it would be wrong to make this differentiation, but I believe that everyone has flaws, and then being able to extract the good things can be useful.
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Post by Boogieman on 08.11.18 19:34

"You are not considering all the positive contribution. Would you say Asetianism is a twisted form of magick?"

Ok what would you consider to be positive contributions ?

I dont see Aset KA as twisted, My meaning in that choice of wording is that when you take an existing pratice, change it to suit yourself and benafit yourself while ignoring all the laws within its own self which creates reckless problems for others.

In a sense what I mean by that is like a teen who claims themselfs as a "wicca" for the purpose of feeling powerful and " casting spells" paying little or no regard to the actual practices and laws in wicca.

I like and enjoy debating and learning others points of views I do hope that no one is taking offense to the manner I word things. It isnt meant to offend anyone either.

Nightshade, Interesting, thats a common feeling I think many people have, so you don't feel somethings origins holds power on its use?

Also I am curious if your the same nightshade I knew years ago..

nachtzehren, thats an interesting viewpoint. Takes a bit different path from stage magic and other forms.

Lynskha , I understand why and how its used, my question was about the influence from its founder.( of that spelling)

Rhea Kaye, very well though out and intruiging response. I agree that the true nature of a pratice doesnt nessacairly change but at the same time some pratices can be influenced. As regarding to Aset Ka they didnt use the term " Magick" until after then adopted it from crowleys influences, and I am aware of many whom still dont use that spelling even today. I do agree that everything has good and bad depending on how one views and interpenetrates things. Hell Nazis are often seen as evil yet they did alot for their nation at the time. No matter if it turned out good or bad.

Well this has been a fun conversation starter huh Smile

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Post by Lynskha on 09.11.18 3:30

When I asked of you considered Asetianism twisted it is because it has a lot of different things involved, including Thelema. Só if you consider Thelema a twisted form of magick and Asetianism has some Thelema inside its system I was curious if you then would apply this thought to Asetianism.
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Post by Lynskha on 09.11.18 3:34

What is your opinion about Asetianism ?Do you consider it interesting?  Valid? A good system? A bad one? Useful?
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Post by Boogieman on 14.11.18 18:21

Lynskha wrote:When I asked of you considered Asetianism twisted it is because it has a lot of different things involved, including Thelema. Só if you consider Thelema a twisted form of magick and Asetianism has some Thelema inside its system I was curious if you then would apply this thought to Asetianism.

When you asked this I figured you meant in reference to the ancient practices and ways of life of aset Ka. I haven't found nor seen much Thelema in Asetianism, although I admit m focuses and studies are normally more towards the ancient and older traditions which were around long before Thelma. Although you have to keep in mind many rituals and practices of Thelma were based off older leanings Crowley obtained from the order of golden dawn, rosen coris, and few other hidden groups which he exposed teachings and rituals of in order to help his own gain. So I could see and understand how their could be correlations because much of the influences of Thelema came from older practices. Tho I suppose it would depend on the individual practicing Aset ka. Large parts of Thelma came from Crowley's obsession with the order of Horus and Egyptian magic.

To make things more clear in everything I was saying, I have NO problem with Thelema or those who follow it as those beliefs and teachings on its own. My point in saying it was a twisted form is as to how it influences other practices. It may seem contradictory but it isnt. I meant how Crowley twisted older teachings and practices to serve himself in its creation, and the influence it has had on all forms of magic. Thus my example of a teen who claims to be Wicca just to feel powerful and be able to " cast " spells. Not actually following the teachings of Wicca. Following ones belife system and not twisting it with others to only suit themselves. Much like how many forms of Christians twist the bible to mean what they want not what it actually says and ignoring the contradictions in their own books. Thus Crowley took other teachings and magic and twisted them to get the most personal gain at the time. Which has had influence on people ever since. I use the term twisted in how its changed other teachings and how it was formed from twisting the teachings of other religions and societies. When you look how he used AA, and Thelema for financing his problems you can see more how he twisted it to his own gain verses a system meant to learn and grow from. Not saying everyone who follows that religion necessarily follows it strictly to his teachings but you get he point im sure. Most religions are guilty at some point in twisting their teachings to gain power for themselves, instead of to grow oneself.

Many christians twist Christianity to serve themselves as well. Does this make sense?

"What is your opinion about Asetianism ?Do you consider it interesting? Valid? A good system? A bad one? Useful?"
My opinion Asetansim is that it is a very interesting, valid system that goes very far back in history and shares many fundamental teachings as many other systems, although It can be dangerous and In my personal opinion it requires much dedication to the point it is more a way of life then something someone just practices. If one wishes to delve into it, I personally think they should take time to become e maser of themselves and strengthen their mind first.

Sorry for late reply i was gone for a while, traveling.

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Post by Lynskha on 14.11.18 19:52

What Aset Ka books have you read?
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Post by Lynskha on 14.11.18 19:54

Which Aset Ka books have you read?
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Post by Jonathan on 15.11.18 5:00

Lynskha in my view I don't think that Asetianism uses elements of Thelema, at least not directly. What I mean is that when it comes to Crowley's teachings I hold the belief that at some point in Crowley's life he had some form of contact with Asetian teachings and culture, its secretive circles back then, and has been influenced by it. I think that some parts of his early teachings and obsession with Egypt have a parallel with a possible influence from the Aset Ka, although I may be wrong of course.
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Post by Lynskha on 15.11.18 9:14

I have to disagree. There are some reference to Thelema directly said in the book. Also in the appencies you may find 2 references to The Book of Thoth and Liber Al vel legis.

Some things I read that I consider to be important:

" It should be also stated the the Order of Aset ka and its teachings are not a closed shell of information The Order has studies , developed and improved a wide range of knowledge and mystical practices across millennia. The diverse traditions that are the subject of study and research by Aset Ka encompass a broad selection of knowledge nd practices explored within the mmultilayered occult spectrum. These range from the different branches of the Western mystery schools to much older Oriental and Middle Eastern esoteric traditions, the misunderstood knowledge of European traditional witchcraft, the obscure practices of Persian, Babylonian and Sumerian sorcery, the mind-bending initiatory works of the Kabbalah and several traditions aligned with the left hand path, aswell as the secrfetive and often feared gnosis found in the forgotten path of spiritual vampirism.
The many cultures and interpretations found through this unlimited pursuit for knowledge, mirrored on countless sources of scholarly and metaphysical study that are embraced within the Aset Ka, do not define the nature of Asetianism and its spiritual legacy. Instead, they establish a layer of wisdom and historical perspective that enriches the educated mind of a learned pratcioner, potentiating a higher mastery of the occult through the mindset of different civilizations and eras."

Violet Throne - page 47

He continues explaining and then mentions the fact that when tying the pieces together it is possible to see how some of those traditionsand paths have developed from the seeds found in the wisdom of the Asetians, however , as we can see above, it is noted that they mention : the Order has tudied developed, improved.

" The diverse traditions that are subject of stydy..."

Asetianism is an incredible masterpiece since it has a research, a background. It is something very serious and one that has a validation that is priceless for me.
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Post by Lynskha on 15.11.18 9:17

*study

sorry about the typos.

continuing

A mention to Thoth Tarot, as well as Rider Waite Smith deck can be found on page 630.

A mention to Crowley on page 631.

Then we have

" This realization further developes on the notion that a deeper study of the Kabbalah is at the foundation of any occultist wishing to venture into the symbolical world of the Tarot...."

"... A classic example is the apparently daunting complexity of Aleister Crowley's The Book of the Law, as it is largely developed on the unification of symbolism and concepts from the Kabbalah and the Tarot:


"Invoke me under my stars! Love is the law, love under will. Nor let the fools mistake love; for there are love and love. There is the dove, and there is the serpent. Choose ye well! He, my prophet, hath chosen, knowing the law of the fortress, and the great mystery of the House of God. All these old letters of my Book are aright, but צ is not the Star. This also is secret: my prophet shall reveal it to the wise." Liber al vel Legis 1:57 26

Luis Marques continues explaining about this symbolism between the Tree and the Tarot, also when there is the explanation when there was a change , rearranging צ.

Looking at the arrangment of the Tree of Life used by Aset Ka on page 579 we can see it is the same arrangement by Crowley when he links Tzadi to Aries and He to Aquarius.

https://nofaithinthehumanrace.com/777/?deck=crowley&changemode=1&show777=1

And what is even more curious is that when looking on oage 597 there is a table with names in hebrew and there Tsadi is related to Aquarius, that would be a contraditcion with the Tree presented, however, if you look into The Book of Thoth, by Crowley, you can see that it is there as well, in the table The Tarot of the egyptians he is linking Tsadi to Aquarius and not Aries like he said before.

The Book of Thoth , page 278

That's why in my humble opinion I see there are a lot of different studies inside Aset ka, even the Order says they develop from different sources of research and studies, including Thelema.
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Post by Rhea Kaye on 15.11.18 9:50

I can see why the original poster thinks what he does about Thelema. Crowley had a lot of deep character flaws. In some instances he appeared extremely twisted, selfish, shallow and egotistical. Those flaws cannot be overlooked. However, it's obvious that his work shouldn't be dismissed on that account. It does present a lot of value. It can be an amazing tool, an interesting doorway to explore. I've discovered that I deeply enjoy what I've studied so far. His analogies, his advice regarding past life regressions, his words about controlling one's own mind, to name only a few. Yes, the Violet Throne does talk about his system as well.

I can see what Jonathan means in his reply though I cannot speak for him. When other paths are talked about in the Violet Throne, I feel it is done to point people in new directions, give them ideas of what other things to study. It points out the influence of the Aset Ka on a huge variety of occult, spiritual, philosophical and even fictional works throughout time. I also believe this requires a new lense than what many are used to seeing through. On initial approach these connections could seem superfluous. Or an outsider could simply go "who are they to claim they had an influence on any organization or mind before the publication of their New Age cult work in 2007?" Obviously, those who felt the beauty of this path know better than to see it in such a limited way. Unearthing subtle cues of their influence throughout history requires an open mind and enough discipline not to expect answers to fall out of the sky. So the essence of what I mean is this: I think Thelema is mentioned because it holds yet another piece of the puzzle. If someone can "master" that system, they put another puzzle piece in place.

That isn't to say Crowley's system is perfect, because it isn't. I can see why people are left with a sour taste in their mouths when they look upon details of the man's life, as he sometimes appeared to be full of ego and unable to follow the spiritual tenants of his own system.

But no one is perfect.

Thelema is a great doorway. I just think one needs to be sure to match his teachings against the pure voice of their own inner Self. Some appear to worship the man blindly and think his inborn talent and intelligence completely excuse any shortcomings, being reasons to follow mistakes because it is "cool". But those obviously don't represent all people studying his system.

The Violet Throne contains a kind of universal gnosis and truth, a deep unveiling of nature (with the hard work of inner growth and responsibility). Such universal tidbits are found in many paths. It is a fun journey to seek out these elements of truth.
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Post by Lynskha on 15.11.18 9:57

“It’s the message that’s important, not the messenger.”

Rodney Smith
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Post by Lynskha on 15.11.18 10:02

Crowley had a lot of deep character flaws.
yes, it is possible to see that by reading his biography, and especially one with no judgmentm, bias, inventions. I agree, a lot of flaws.

That isn't to say Crowley's system is perfect, because it isn't.

Yes, and like you said, not perfect but it has a lot of good contributions.

Some appear to worship the man blindly and think his inborn talent and intelligence completely excuse any shortcomings, being reasons to follow mistakes because it is "cool".

Sad true when people worhip not only him, but othersm, and then using it as an excuse...

The worship thing is something that tends to be very negative and avoided by manym we can see Luis Marques mentioning it as well.

So what I tried to cover above was that we cannot deny there are a lot of different elements inside Asetianism. They of course suggest students to learn from different studies. But we can see that there are many influences, there is a background, a base, and that is the beauty of Aset Ka, its seriousness.
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Post by Lynskha on 15.11.18 10:02

( broken laptop keyboard, sorry again for the typos)
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Post by Jonathan on 15.11.18 10:13

I didn’t say that there were no references to Thelema and Crowley in Asetian literature or that its study isn’t beneficial. On the contrary as I believe that the study of different paths is certainly a great tool, not only intellectually but also metaphysically. Thelema is without a doubt an interesting and valuable path of study, even if far more incomplete than the infinite layers found within Asetianism. What I meant to say is that personally, and this is only a personal opinion, I don’t think Crowley directly influenced Asetianism while on the other hand I can see subtle clues in Crowley’s thought process and creative process that leads me to suspect that he might have been influences by earlier Asetian philosophy. If he actually knew about the existence of the Aset Ka I have no idea, especially since the Order was so incredibly secret back then.
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Post by Lynskha on 15.11.18 10:28

I don't think that Asetianism uses elements of Thelema

I may have got confused when I read this, sorry.

I don’t think Crowley directly influenced Asetianism

I agree, maybe not influenced but then we can say that it has some elements ... in my opinion.
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Post by Rhea Kaye on 15.11.18 10:47

I see good posts here.
I have to agree that Crowley was probably influenced by Asetian teachings and not the other way around, even if he was not fully aware of such.
Since the Order has its origin in Sep Tepy, a powerful time of purity and advanced magic directly taught and initiated from the Elder Gods, this makes even more sense. The Elder Asetians (including Primordials) being around in a time during which the Gods walked the Earth, being around when the Pyramids were raised, holds interesting implications. Mankind has not been able to figure out how to replicate those pyramids despite the advanced technology of today. That magic is something unable to be accurately copied, though evidence of their far-reaching influence is everywhere.
In my opinion, this is partially why so many are deeply attracted to and moved by Asetianism. It holds ancient magic, the sacred essence of those primordial times.... Such essence moves in quite mysterious ways as time continues to shift, influencing minds and souls, changing history. The mark is eternal.

Anyway, good thread. The topic has been on my mind for a while (Thelema) so it is nice to see the discussion going.
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