Do the Sethians have an equivalent to the Violet Flame?

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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 13:00

Dwelling into speculative possibilities, do the Sethians have an equivalent of the Violet Flame, a "Red Flame", perhaps? Although, within Setian currents and wider Satanism we see the notion of the Black Flame, either invented by Satan or Set, a force that is supposed to have given humans individual self-consciousness and free will or divine potential. But that is according to their theory and philosophy, as far as I am concerned, and doubt whether or not that's actually the case. It dwells into very heavy theological questions upon the ponderance of free will and humanity in relation to fate and divinity, but it might make certain sense upon the notion of Promethean figures in mythology who stole fire from heaven to give it to mankind. That might be one interpretation, but does it at all connect to Sethianism, or the actual Sethians - the Red Order of Seth?

We know that Her Higness Aset created the Violet Flame as an extension of Her very essence when throwing out her magickal breath in the Duat, and as such, it might not have been replicated by the father of the Sethians, Seth, or might it have been? Might Seth have created a mimicking copy of the breath of Aset, by inventing his own kind of equivalent of the Violet Flame, within the system of Sethianism - a kind of corresponding higher essence? Would this be possible, considering that Aset is probably far more powerful than Seth in terms of magick, being a Goddess of magick Herself? ...

Now this raises some interesting questions, which I don't think this forum has touched upon so far.
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Post by Maxx on 18.02.19 13:16

your statements by their very nature assume and infur so much.... but Satan and Set are not one and the same. There is no such Satan at all, other than an egregore.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 13:25

Yes, Setians say as much, but that Set is the real figure behind the name Satan, whereas Satan is merely a kind of mask that is a false caricature.

However, I am merely raising the question. I don't have any definitive knowledge whatsoever upon this.
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Post by Maxx on 18.02.19 13:50

"but that Set is the real figure behind the name Satan"

your first sentence appears that Set would be responsible for all the actions attributed to the name Satan and that the Setians say as much. I am not so certain of that when I looked into the background and details of where the Vatican group picked up the connection assigned to this topic in the beginning.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 13:58

I've heard Satanists describe Satan as a real entity though; maybe their knowledge does not go so far as to understand him to be only an egregore, or they understand something which we merely overlook and dismiss as an egregore. Where's the solid factual basis? These Satanists seem to argue that Satan, or at least Lucifer, is not a Christian construct - maybe both, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I am well aware that Luis Marques writes in the Violet Throne that many of these names are indeed merely attached to egregores, manufactured inventions by the religious thought of many, but the absolute verification of that lies not within my experience at the moment, so I can't say for certain as he might do - they've probably verified it in some way, but then again, I cannot trust the words of others upon matters like these; it has to stand out within my own experience, or else I know nothing. I'm very spiritually empirical about it. So it would be wiser for you, other than to try to bash my head for such apparent "disagreement", to give me the step by step procedural method to realize these things on my own, or to indicate a way of achieving its understanding, than blindly believing you, or anybody else, and taking their authority for granted without knowing for myself personally. Now, I'm not really asking for any "super-secret" knowledge, as I can probably just try to grasp these things on my own, but don't think that I'll take your statements as hundred percent accurate without personally knowing. The seeker questions; the blind believer believes whatever he wants.

Although, yes, indeed, by looking back throughout history one might naturally make the conclusion that Satan and/or Lucifer were merely Christian inventions and postulated as real by their tradition and religion, becoming collectively focused thoughts of religious imagination and egregores. But regardless I'm not settled on this yet just for the simple reason that I do not fully know and there are more arguements, thoughts and perspectives on this than one alone.

Well, yes... it was my supposition - that which you are mentioning about that "Set would be responsible for all the actions attributed to the name Satan", however I don't think the Setians say as much, just to clarify myself. These are merely my own theories of present understanding.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 14:16

Anyhow, I'm merely speaking from a kind of conceptual level, not a very informationally factual basis. Raising questions merely to start a discussion and fill in space with valueable content, not from me but from all participators in the forum. It's like a bait to catch the fish. It's not the bait that is of any value in terms of nutrition but the fish... so attacking me won't do any help either way.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 14:20

Just for future reference; but it's the bait which gathers the fish. I might not have everything straight in terms of facts or information but I am eager to learn, and wishing to create a worthwhile discussion.
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Post by Rhea Kaye on 18.02.19 14:59

I do not personally believe that Set is an equivalent to Satan. Satan is actually a far more modern creation, and not an Elder Deity like Set is.

If we assume Satan to be Set in disguise, we must also assume that the common form of "the One True God" is actually Set as well. Especially given that this is how the Red Order thrives - controlling humanity through the religious dogma of monotheism (in addition to the natural hunger for power that humanity tends to fall for, and so on.) It was the hands of Sethians through which the false system of a one true Lord versus evil was created.
To attribute the qualities of Satan all to Set and assume him to fit that role in its entirety is also to misunderstand the dynamic between Sethians and Asetians. It is said that the Sethians are the ones who actually bear the blinding light of salvation and the so-called "unconditional kindness". Aset Herself rose in Sep Tepy as the first adversary of the Gods, showing one of Her incredibly dark faces and conquering the magick of Ra that had a part in beginning this eternal conflict between two ancient families. Even examining the two realms, the seat of Aset's empire and that of Set, makes this more clear. Aset would not even allow Ra full reign within Her territory, choosing instead the beauty of lush vegetation and restriction of sunlight that comes with it. Meanwhile, Set and Ra were better allies and Set's territory was the arid desert with all its scorching sunlight.

Someone made a really good thread a while back about Satan, the Dragon and biblical connections that might add some further points of contemplation.
http://www.vampirismforum.com/t462-old-serpent?highlight=old+serpent

There is the Violet Flame of the Asetians, but I'm not sure if there is a "Red Flame" variant of Set's essence. It would make a lot of sense and I tend to think there is a variant like this, but that goes into more speculation. It is also known that the Red Order has been trying to conquer secrets of the Aset Ka's magick for millennia, so my instinct would be to say that the Violet Flame has superior and greater qualities in some way, otherwise it would be not worth it to bother fighting to conquer its mysteries. Interesting parallels remain within things like the light spectrum, where violet is at the higher end, the higher vibration and corresponding to higher subtle planes... whereas the red end of the spectrum corresponds to the Was pillar and the physical plane, the root chakra, so on.

But, all speculation aside, I believe it's important to keep in mind that the ancient conflict is much more than disputes between the honorable and Satan. A real deity would have to embody a duality, otherwise they would not be complete and therefore not a deity at all.

It's interesting to think about though.
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Post by Rhea Kaye on 18.02.19 15:07

I would have to agree, on this one, that Satan is an egregore... a creation of mankind. Set, on the other hand, is completely different. Attributing Satan to Set waters down the complexity of history and leads to misunderstanding.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 15:18

I enjoyed reading your reply, Rhea. However from my perspective I did not equate Satan with an evil force like light versus darkness, where knights and paladins fight holy war against the unrigtheous and wicked. From the perspectives of those Satanists I have been listening to, for them, Satan might foster their own evolution but contrarily to the way the Christian god would like it, however that's an entirerly different story and probably deviates from the topic at hand and also befalls under being considered wrongly assumed concepts to begin with. But yes, I agree with you.

Maybe even the conceived notion of Satan from Satanists is very far distant from the ancient Egyptian understanding of Seth and they might not hold any correlation whatsoever, but possibilities and speculations are always interesting to think about.
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Post by Maxx on 18.02.19 15:22

RK
You hit it center mark in two places in your description.  Let's get some more comment in here on this.  This subject could turn out to be very important.

And beacon light.... you think that was an attack????

Damn, you need to increase your medication intake.
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Post by Rhea Kaye on 18.02.19 16:01

I am not sure which places you mean, but this did get me thinking about Khenmet.
It was mentioned in the Violet Throne that the sacred practice was modified ever so slightly, distinguishing the Elders from those who did not live during Sep Tepy. Of course, I can only speculate. But I have seen it discussed here before that Set copied and adopted the magick of Aset in an incomplete practice. (I think it may have been Victor who said that, but it has been a while.) So, a possible key of interpretation regarding the immortality of the Sethians might lay within the area of Aset's own personal magick being copied and modified. Bringing me to more questions... Aset cast Her magick in the Duat, traveling between worlds to create a triple flame in transcendence, the Primordials. We can speculate about who the Sethian "Elders" were, as opposed to the Asetian Elders such as Hathor, Sekhmet, Bast, Imhotep, Ptah, and Khonsu. One such possibility could be Sobek, and it makes a lot of sense. Then I wonder about the others. Perhaps clues lie within their animalistic associations, such as the crocodile and hippopotamus. But it would make sense to say that they do not hold the same keys to the same realities. I believe this is something that Set and his children always fought to conquer, this creational power of Aset to cast the highest magick within realms of infinity. The details, I know, will never be revealed to the general public.  

Honestly, it gets my brain really firing. Horus is said to be the rightful ruler and I definitely resonate with that, given His position in Kether as the Serpent kissing the infinite of Aset's cold beauty. The Sethians are not the rightful rulers over the Duat, but desire that power for themselves and this fight for power has echoed throughout the flow of time and beyond it.

The temple of Set, and the whole furor surrounding Satanism, seems somewhat like a misdirection. The topic of deliberate (and sometimes unintentional) occult misdirection from throughout the ages is a whole different animal. I will openly admit I am not well-versed with these modern creations, because they do not particularly call out to my soul. I just sense a whole lack of depth there, and Satan seems like a big repository for all of humankind's fears... like detritus from the subconscious plane all gathering and collecting into one convenient figure that will allow people to run away from their own duality. The same thing could be said for Jehovah, Allah, or any of the other monotheistic gods, in my own opinion. It would make sense for the Sethians to steer people into doing this (and why they benefit from this probably could get into a very long other topic). But concerning the two ancient bloodlines, to attribute a Satan-like characteristic to Set would be a mistake. Satan is associated with darkness, or at least, the common and misunderstood view of what darkness is. And yet, the Aset Ka wields a far darker kind of magick. Just look at the Epic Wars, when Aset unleashed the force of Serket and the Seven Scorpions along with the Imperial Guard... a dreaded legion that committed unspeakable things.
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Post by Rhea Kaye on 18.02.19 16:15

The Violet Flame, in all its high initiatory properties, is the essence of eternity, of a very ethereal quality.

But, the Sethians find their greatest power and dominion within what is considered as a Kabbalistically inferior element, Earth as opposed to the ethereal home of the immortals. The Aset Ka holding power over the reincarnation cycles within the Duat, a power that can't be broken, is another detail too. The Red Order ruled best within a time of alchemical Earth, which opens more contemplation over how they could have scattered the Asetian family if not holding those ethereal keys.

It does make me curious, if they had a flame of their own, how would it possess the same power and quality as those who find their home within higher realms.
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Post by Victor on 18.02.19 17:08

This is a valuable discussion. It's good to see people still debating with intelligence in this forum.

Rhea Kaye wrote:But I have seen it discussed here before that Set copied and adopted the magick of Aset in an incomplete practice. (I think it may have been Victor who said that, but it has been a while.) So, a possible key of interpretation regarding the immortality of the Sethians might lay within the area of Aset's own personal magick being copied and modified. Bringing me to more questions... Aset cast Her magick in the Duat, traveling between worlds to create a triple flame in transcendence, the Primordials. We can speculate about who the Sethian "Elders" were, as opposed to the Asetian Elders such as Hathor, Sekhmet, Bast, Imhotep, Ptah, and Khonsu. One such possibility could be Sobek, and it makes a lot of sense.

I will not be discussing my sources on this but I can reinforce your idea about Sobek being Sethian. An unrelenting warrior and feared general in the Sethian army; he was involved in a legendary attack on the Asetian stronghold of Philae and the one who stroke Neith in this "red night" where she gave her life in the defense of her Master. She was an Asetian Elder and master archer within the Imperial Guard. There is an encoded poem about this very battle that can be found in Liber Vox I, compiled within Liber Aeternus.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 17:32

Does this ring a bell? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek#/media/File:Kom_Ombo,_Sobek_0319.JPG

The same is pictured within "Kemet: The Year of Revelation", where underneath the picture it's stated that they are Sethians. So yes, Sobek indeed appears to be a Sethian, by validation of these sources.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 18:03

It's strange, though, what you're mentioning, in relation to this, Victor: namely that, merely reading on some wikipedia - and other - articles, Neith was seen as mother of the crocodile god, Sobek. I'd guess wikipedia most of the time (?), or in many matters, has some level of accuracy with input from various referential sources, such as in this case with different other places corroborating it.

With what you mentioned here it seems very strange, but of course, Ancient Egyptian history, and particularly these matters dealing with obscurity, might often be quite ambiguous, such as even the Sethians appearing to claim association with Osiris, as stated in the picture depicting Sobek as an "Osirian" healer - Osiris who appears to be on the Asetian side of things from the Book of Nun. Overall, from further reading, Sobek appears to have various Asetian elements incorporated into his story. It's quite strange and perplexing. But one would guess that the Sethians, apart from Akhenaten, might often have adopted pre-existing traditional Egyptian customs, even with kingship and Pharaohs, to blend in with the rest of traditional society and stay low key. At least, that is my speculative understanding.
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Post by Rhea Kaye on 18.02.19 18:16

Thanks for replying, Victor. I am glad to see you are still around too.

Interesting detail about the poem within the Book of Orion. I was poring over it not long ago. It was a heady cocktail of sensations, their despair and the sense of strong emotions leaping off the page.

This definitely beckons more study. Puzzle pieces like this are valuable.

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Post by Rhea Kaye on 18.02.19 18:18

Maxx, do you have any thoughts about the possible differences in the Flame or energetic fabric between Asetians and Sethians?
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Post by Maxx on 18.02.19 18:22

what could be strange in that regarding healing.  I use one of the dark angels of death for fantastic healing with people all over the world.  Actually, it is my go-to Spirit for healing. Just as some of the so-called light beings are responsible for devastating chaos and destruction against some humans I know of, as I have said many times before here, there is not a lot of dif between the two worlds.

I have found Sobek connected with the first recorded rulers of ancient Egypt.  Mentioning Wiki.....as Neith is mentioned as the mother of Sobek, so Set is mentioned as the father.  Who knew?  Wiki? lol.

Akhenaten got his association with mono from his grandfather and great grandfather.  This was not his own idea out of the ether.
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Post by Maxx on 18.02.19 18:24

RK,
Yes, I do, it is the two points you mentioned in your posting that I referenced. But before I mention it, I want to hear what some others are thinking about all of this. I will not forget it as I live it every day.

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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 18:27

Indeed. I was just reading about it in the "Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt". Interesting history, about Akhenaten, that is; there certainly was a build up from his father, grandfather or great grandfather as you state.
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Post by Maxx on 18.02.19 19:02

Lol. You just told me earlier you would not take anything I say as having any truth that you can take on just MY WORD on anything.

Toby Wilkinson is almost as bad as the old lady rumor monger starting problems in a small town. He is entertaining at least.

What do you think of Wallis Budge?
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 18.02.19 19:07

Haven't read him. Is it material you would recommend?
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Post by Maxx on 18.02.19 19:12

Budge argued that the religion of Osiris had emerged from an indigenous African people:

"There is no doubt", he said of Egyptian religions in Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection (1911), "that the beliefs examined herein are of indigenous origin, Nilotic or Sūdānī in the broadest signification of the word, and I have endeavoured to explain those which cannot be elucidated in any other way, by the evidence which is afforded by the Religions of the modern peoples who live on the great rivers of East, West, and Central Africa . . . Now, if we examine the Religions of modern African peoples, we find that the beliefs underlying them are almost identical with those Ancient Egyptian ones described above. As they are not derived from the Egyptians, it follows that they are the natural product of the religious mind of the natives of certain parts of Africa, which is the same in all periods."
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Post by Maxx on 18.02.19 19:14

Toby received an opportunity to study under an award ship given by the Wallis Budge honorarium. Good ole Cambridge boy.
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