Merciful euthanasia?

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Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Syrianeh on 26.06.09 1:09

I have a thorny subject to ask about.

It's been discussed here before how some skillful Vampires and other beings of sensitivity can use their metaphysical power to go as far as to physically kill. This seems to be the way with the Imperial Guard among others.

Now, since energy manipulation and the force of Will can be used both for constructive and destructive purposes (i. e. healing and murdering, the latter in extreme cases and assuming all responsibility, for there is always a price to be paid) I am wondering if this principle can be applied to euthanasia; that is, helping someone pass on when their present physical existence is a living death.

I am sure it's been done before and that, given its merciful, non-vindictive purposes, it is a much less complex process than murder.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 26.06.09 2:59

Interesting question. Something I have debated before as well. I do believe it all depends on the circumstances. Just like with abortion, there is a difference between a woman reclessly getting pregnant knowing that abortion is always an option or someone having a baby with major health issue that get discovered early enough for a baby to be safely aborted. Same thing here, it is one thing when you are dealing with someone who relies on machines to exists and wants out, v.s. to someone who just wants out because they are terminally ill and lost hope. I think everyone has a right to decide if they want to live or not for themselves. However, I also think that they should not get other involved. Death is a private process and needs to be undertaken as such. When people die naturally or from illness they do not ask others for help in the matter. Therefor, if someone is ill and is on the machines, their desire could be granted by turning off the machines. After all they would not go on without them. I have heard of people who chose to die by not taking medication and getting treatments for their illness. There is always a way to make someone's passing with medical drugs. One can also councel others on the matters of crossing over.

For instance when my father was going to have a surgery on his broken hip, doctors weren't sure if he'd survive being put under due to an extremely weak heart. So I talked to him and told him that if he is to face a choice of life or moving on. He could decide for himself and not warry about me at all. Then we talked about different ways he'd communicate with me if he decides to move on. Since I am a medium I felt comfortable to speak with him about the whole process. I am not sure I made sense...Smile
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Talibah on 26.06.09 6:26

Interesting subject Syrianeh.

This rouses deep emotions within me, and I think that, from an Asetian point of view, and considering how strong the bonds are between partnered soulmates, if one of them were suffering - either from illness or old age - it would be one of those decisions that would be honored by the Aset Ka.
I think it would be a highly personal thing between them, and on a moral and spiritual level completely different from killing.

After all, eventually, both partners will be reunited again. So for one to help the other move on and begin anew, is simply perpetuating the cycle and reinforcing the link they have.

Some may argue that dying naturally, or in which ever way the individuals path leads, is part of the cyclical stages of death and rebirth, and that intervention should be avoided. I would like to think that if the death of one could be shared and overseen by another it would go some way to strengthening the everlasting bond they have into the next incarnation.

I know this is quite a romantisied response, and could be completely inaccurate - given the many guidelines Asetians and especially the Aset Ka adhere to - but the bonds they share are so powerful even death cannot break them.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 26.06.09 10:31

[quote="Talibah"]Interesting subject Syrianeh.
Some may argue that dying naturally, or in which ever way the individuals path leads, is part of the cyclical stages of death and rebirth, and that intervention should be avoided./quote] You are talking about human death process here. When you deal with highly evolved Soul, such as Asetian, there is no issue of lack of control. Evolved Soul decides when to go and just goes. There is no need for help from someone else, Asetian or not.

I think what we are talking about here if it is right to help a human to end their life. My response is, unless they are in a vegitative state (in which case you all you have to do is unplug the machines) by helping someone to die you are not allowing them to grow further and be in control of their own death process. Yes, humans are weak by nature and are controled by their religious or cultural fears, but that does not mean that someone else should be doing it for them. Again I have heard of people who were terminally ill and would chose to not go through treatments, but live fully instead and then exit when the time came, but they were not asking their loved ones or anyone else to off them. It happened on its own, just much quicker then if they were being treated for their illness.

Talibah wrote: I would like to think that if the death of one could be shared and overseen by another it would go some way to strengthening the everlasting bond they have into the next incarnation.

I know this is quite a romantisied response, and could be completely inaccurate - given the many guidelines Asetians and especially the Aset Ka adhere to - but the bonds they share are so powerful even death cannot break them.
And remember based on the mythology, Aset helped her husband to be put back together after he was murdered by his brother Seth. She was pro life..Smile
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Maxx on 26.06.09 10:51

I will not even begin to touch on this subject from my testimony. But I would like to point the group to What Franz Bardon, which would be considered a white light Magician or Hermetic Magician, has to say.

"Should the magician use the powers for good purposes, then he is practicing "white" magic. Should he, however, pursue evil purposes, then he is practicing "black" magic.
It does not matter whether the activities are good or evil------the laws that apply always remain the same. HE SAYS that God the universal Creator did not create anything impure and evil. However, that is not to say that man should do both good and evil. The contrast exists for one reason: so that a human being may master it and learn how to distinguish the truth from its opposite. A true magician will never underestimate the negative, and neither will he avoid it. A true magician will always cede to the negative the place to which it is entitled, and therefore the negative must be just as useful to him as the postive. That is why a magician does not consider the negative powers to be evil. He does not consider good and evil from a religious point of view: rather, he considers them from a universal point of view."

Regards,

Maxx
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Syrianeh on 26.06.09 11:24

Thank you all for your imputs. The reason why I asked this question was manifold: curiosity, interest and intrigue being some of them.

There are many reasons why someone would want to be helped passed on. As empress well says, getting relieved of a vegetative state is one. In this case, "turning off the machine" is the standard procedure. As Talibah says, a lovers' treaty could lead to this. It is also possible and very emotionally charged, and drugs could help this purpose.

Maxx has brought on a very important point: the means serve the purpose and depending on it, the means are unimportant. Bardon was quite the Macchiavelo himself.

There are cases, however where the person who is entrapped in a living death, cannot answer for themselves or even reason. This is the case of mentally degenerative diseases such as ALzheimer's or other forms of dementia. In this case, a "physic euthanasia" would ensue as it is the only means possible towards a "legal demise".
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 26.06.09 11:42

Syrianeh wrote: There are cases, however where the person who is entrapped in a living death, cannot answer for themselves or even reason. This is the case of mentally degenerative diseases such as ALzheimer's or other forms of dementia. In this case, a "physic euthanasia" would ensue as it is the only means possible towards a "legal demise".

To that I can only say that my maternal grandmother passed from Alzheimer. Her journey took about 4 years, 1 of which was in semi-veggitative state. However, that journey allowed my grandfather to serve his karma to her by carying for her 24/7 (he did cause her a lot of pain during their middleage when he had affairs and almost left her) and also she died in my mothers arms and my mother said that just before she left her body she had a moment of clear consciousness when she connected with my mother and then let our her final breath.... So is it right to take away such experience, just because we assume the person wants to go? I believe that as long as the body is functioning on its own, we have no business of getting on its way. Yes there are degenerative diseases, but they effect physical mind not consciousness. Even with mental illness we can only judge based on what we see, not what the Soul and Consciousness are doing with this body. These are my convictions.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Syrianeh on 26.06.09 13:22

That is true and understandable, empress. Very good point.

However, in my opinion, such cases often bring with them the total degeneration of the body, not just the mind, and a very painful loss of dignity from the patient. It is horrible to witness. Personally, I have no doubts about it: I'd want to go.

This said, I do have a similar experience: my grandmother also spoke to me clearly and coherently just before she died. I was the only person there at the moment and no one believes me, because she had lost her mind a while before. She was suddenly herself, looked straight at me and asked me how things were. Then she died. But hers was a very short transition: she went from elderly but healthy to completely absent in just two months, then died.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 26.06.09 13:28

Syrianeh wrote:That is true and understandable, empress. Very good point.

However, in my opinion, such cases often bring with them the total degeneration of the body, not just the mind, and a very painful loss of dignity from the patient. It is horrible to witness. Personally, I have no doubts about it: I'd want to go..
While the body is alive the Soul still has a physical connection to the material world. We do not know and cannot judge as to the purpose of such connection to be maintain. Hence, someone's body could be in coma while their Soul is hanging around their family. After the body is terminated, the Soul has to continue its journey forward to be reincarnated again. In my work as a medium, I can tell you for certain only sudden death can through a human soul off and confuse as to what's next. For the most part, once they leave their bodies they know what to do next.

Syrianeh wrote:This said, I do have a similar experience: my grandmother also spoke to me clearly and coherently just before she died. I was the only person there at the moment and no one believes me, because she had lost her mind a while before. She was suddenly herself, looked straight at me and asked me how things were. Then she died. But hers was a very short transition: she went from elderly but healthy to completely absent in just two months, then died.
Beautiful experience, and yet another proof to you that consciousness can reenter the body when it wants too..Smile even if it's just to say the last good bye.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Maxx on 26.06.09 14:14

Empress2k


After the body is terminated, the Soul has to continue its journey forward to be reincarnated again. In my work as a medium, I can tell you for certain only sudden death can through a human soul off and confuse as to what's next. For the most part, once they leave their bodies they know what to do next.



Based on your statement above, have you ever run into a Vampire that has body hoped?

When you say they know what to do next.....would mean you are saying the Vampire Egyptian ruler would go back for reincarnation training and then come back to reenter the body of the next ruler like the Dali Llama, or maybe you have the belief there are exceptions. Either way, I know you are sincere about it.

By the way, my training tells me NOT to go toward the light under any circumstances. Smile

Regards,

Maxx
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 26.06.09 15:07

Maxx wrote:Empress2k

After the body is terminated, the Soul has to continue its journey forward to be reincarnated again. In my work as a medium, I can tell you for certain only sudden death can through a human soul off and confuse as to what's next. For the most part, once they leave their bodies they know what to do next.

Based on your statement above, have you ever run into a Vampire that has body hoped?

As we have established there are many different types of Vampires. If you are speaking of Asetians, then no I have not and to be honest, as elitist as Asetian Race is I just don't see it happening. Regular human body would not be able to hold the energy of such Soul without major problems. As you probably know Asetian children are very weak and sickly often battling with colds, respiratory infections and other disorders. I can also tell you that it takes them years to build up their bodies and make it comfortable with that energy. Thus the older they get the stronger they become, contrary to humans..Smile you get weaker and sicker with age. This is another reason Vampires look younger then their age...Smile Therefore, why would one go into an unaccostumed adult body? I hope that makes sense.

Maxx wrote:When you say they know what to do next.....would mean you are saying the Vampire Egyptian ruler would go back for reincarnation training and then come back to reenter the body of the next ruler like the Dali Llama, or maybe you have the belief there are exceptions. Either way, I know you are sincere about it.

By the way, my training tells me NOT to go toward the light under any circumstances. Smile

Regards,

Maxx
Highly evolved souls (Egyptian ruler or not) do not need any additional trainging between reincarnations. They incarnate by choice and not because they have to. Their purpose in a physical body is to councel and guide others and to insure that the balance is maintained. The space between two physical lives is to allow Soul to sort of rest and recharge. However, that again depends on the evolution of such Soul, some still need to sort of go over their past experience to prepare for the next and to determine what set of skills they want to cultivate in themselves and others next.

What that space looks like depends on each individual soul. Mine for example is Celestial Space, so not much light there..Smile For others it could be something more resembling Earth or other planets. I have regressed into past-lives before where I witnessed my own physical death and departure from the body.. actually quite interesting experience.

Physical life is exhosting! Even more so when you come here to guide and lead others, so in between place is of great value..Smile
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Maxx on 26.06.09 15:37

I have seen several of mine as well. Contrary to many accounts of famous people coming up over and over, which tells me if that was possible, in all famous people there exists maybe 2000 or more souls living inside that body at the same time.....lol. In mine, I was not a very famous person at all.......Seeing a death in one, I owned a hardware store and was a blacksmith at the same time. I saw as I put on my only suit and went into my closed store as it was boarded up due to my lung and other physical problems where I was coughing blood. I put on my suit as I wanted to meet my maker looking the best I could and honored my maker by dressing for the occasion. Like meeting the King and Queen. I lay down on a table a died alone. I was that way in that life as well as this one. I saw the lights change all around me and above and then it enveloped me. I saw within the sight to see myself looking down on my body and I felt the pain cease and I became more comfortable.

Other times I was a German tank officer that was shot. Two previous lives I recall being what is called a medicine man by some as an American Indian. It was the saddest site I have ever seen and emotional as well. I saw as the entire village waited around the tent praying as I went in and sought the vision as to what direction to tell the tribe to move to find the game to feed the families. The little children and the women were huddled together and looked so sad. My success in recieving the correct info meant whether the tribe ate or starved. The emotions were so over powering that tears flowed very strongly as I witnessed this part. I cannot explain why I went into this type of life twice. Two other times I was in the body of a female. One was involved in Witchcraft and the surrounding village area where I lived was rather frightened of me. Others I will not get into about Egypt. I would rather keep that secret.

But........you are an interesting person, Empress2k, and everyone is enjoying your posts...


Regards,



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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 26.06.09 15:59

Thank you very much for sharing Maxx! Past lives worth their weight in gold. I have being enjoying myself here as well..Smile and the sharing process. I'd love to go into your Egyptian lives one of these days, though.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Maxx on 26.06.09 16:16

I would like to add that during my time at the hardware store and blacksmith for the area, I had a strange ability to read the mind of the animals or horses. I found that many of the horses were capable of taking sickness from humans like some dogs do today and healing the person. I would take a particular horse to a sick persons house and have them put their arms around the horse and hug it and hold onto it. Also, to take their bare hands and rub over the horse. It was therapy for both. Three days of this and I would find that because I brought the correct horse, the person would have a remarkable improvement and healing.

I was surprised to find programs or books today describing the same things to aid in the physical and mental healing of people. Earlier in my life I had no problem in killing humans, but would not and cannot today kill an animal. I seem to respect them much more than most people I become aware of. But realize, each person is very different from the next.

Regards,

Maxx
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 26.06.09 16:34

Maxx wrote:I would like to add that during my time at the hardware store and blacksmith for the area, I had a strange ability to read the mind of the animals or horses.
Maxx
I am not surprised! Blacksmith in Europe were ofter very spiritual and were believed to posess supernatural abilities. I have a friends who is very involved with ADF (druids) and she told me some amazing stories about blacksmith in the old days. It's wonderful that you tapped into that life-time. Much to bring forward from there.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Talibah on 29.06.09 0:17

empress wrote:
I think what we are talking about here if it is right to help a human to end their life.

It is a forum, and as such, I was responding to the question posed in the way I wanted to.

I am sure you will agree that all opinions and views are as valid as eachother, without being wither right or wrong as per the original question?
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 29.06.09 1:32

Of course all opinions and views are valid as they do not really matter all that much unless individual is faced with such choice in real life. There are many men and women out there who swear up and down that they will never cheat on their loved one, yet when the time comes they do. There are many who'd swear that they could never kill anyone, yet when the circumstances present themselves and they feel they have no other choice they do. So no matter how much one is sure of their opinion, until they have to make such a decision, there are no garantees one way or another. Besides, while all opinions and views are valid, there are still some Universal Laws that all must abide to transitional smoothly on their evolutionary path. Since these laws are not written down we can only speculate based on what we feel is right or what we were taught it right, yet only our Higher Self knows what these Laws are....Smile
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Talibah on 29.06.09 3:34

empress wrote:
yet only our Higher Self knows what these Laws are....

I agree. I also believe this is where most opinions and views and inner thoughts stem from, yet many do not take the time or have the ability to listen to them - until a situation arises where they feel they must act upon it.

Whether an opinion is evidence based - through having experienced the situation personally, such as a loved one suffering - or whether it is intuition based, I think both are equally valid...and matter. It is whether you choose to pay attention to them or not that counts.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 29.06.09 4:20

Talibah wrote:
empress wrote:
yet only our Higher Self knows what these Laws are....
Whether an opinion is evidence based - through having experienced the situation personally, such as a loved one suffering - or whether it is intuition based, I think both are equally valid...and matter. It is whether you choose to pay attention to them or not that counts.

Right, and then when and if situation does arise, one could act completely unexpectedly to one's self and others.

I have a friend whose father suffered a stroke about a year and a half ago which completely dibilitated him. He was 78 at the time and had many other conditions on top. For the next few months he was going down the hill. Yet, even though he could not speak and was partially paralized, whenever they would ask him if he want to continue fighting he would give them a sign "yes". Finally a few months into it, after he got infected and was suffering with horrible bed sores from being in a bad skilled facility his family had him transferred to the hospital. By then he was barely conscious and relying on machines. So they asked him again if he wanted to keep fighting when he gave them a very angry look and turned away. At that point the whole family gathered and they agreed to turn of the machines. All his children witnessed his last breath. Now, this is very different from someone who is fully capable to take a responsibility of the act on their own yet want someone else do it for them.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Talibah on 29.06.09 5:03

empress wrote:
Now, this is very different from someone who is fully capable to take a responsibility of the act on their own yet want someone else do it for them.



There was a case here in the UK a while back. A woman suffering from MND fought for some time to get British law changed so that her husband could assist her in dying.
Although she was incapable of walking, talking, feeding herself etc, her mental abilities were unaffected - such is the cruelty of motor neurones disease.

This case went to the highest courts in the country, and also to the court of human rights...it was turned down each time, and she died eventually of lung and chest problems.

When she was diagnosed with MND some years before it deteriorated to such and extent so as to render her incapable of acting of her own volition, the thought of taking her life had occured to her, but she did not have the emotional strength to carry it out.

Asking someone else, to carry out such an act of mercy relies upon them having the strength to do so. And upon your confidence in them to do so without fail should the time call for it.

Personally, I see the act of switching off a machine that is sustaining a non compos mentis individual as an act of necessary mercy. Whereas assisting them whilst they are physically or emotionally incapable but fully aware of the act, is something more akin to true spiritual mercy.
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Syrianeh on 29.06.09 5:30

I know a case of a young man, a friend's friend, who was HIV positive. While the disease was dormant he lived normally. But at some point it started to manifest all over his body. Knowing that it would only go downhill, he requested the service of an underground "suicide club" that provided him with the right sure fire drug dose to to it on his own.

He put on his fanciest white suit, rented a hotel room and stepped away with that method.

I later heard that this organization caters to such needs if and only you prove to them that you have a medical condition that would legitimize euthanasia. I thought it was quite an idea, albeit illegal. This man made a completely conscious choice, took full responsability for it, and they gave him the means.

I heard of the English woman's case; there have been others, in Spain too. It is horrible and undignifying that someone should be doomed to die a slow death against their own wishes. What I mean to say is that while I applaud these people's valour in fighting the system for their rights, some times it is better to just take matters into your own hands.

This said I know we have steered off from the metaphysical issue, but in the end it comes down to the same thing...
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Talibah on 29.06.09 5:56

My initial reply was edging towards the more metaphysical response you were looking for - albeit a bit of a personal response - but it veered away.
Nevermind.

What are peoples opinions on how a metaphysical approach to assisted suicide should be, and what it might entail etc?
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Syrianeh on 29.06.09 6:06

Talibah wrote:My initial reply was edging towards the more metaphysical response you were looking for - albeit a bit of a personal response - but it veered away.

True, I veered it off at the end. I just couldn't help telling that story...

Talibah wrote:What are peoples opinions on how a metaphysical approach to assisted suicide should be, and what it might entail etc?

I would also like to see more opinions on this...
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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by Maxx on 29.06.09 7:33

I have never dealt with helping people leave. All of my efforts are just to walk in and heal the person. I really do not look at helping someone end their life. Never been asked. Although cursing is a much different topic, there are many more requests for something on that order with the type personailites you deal with today.

Regards,

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Re: Merciful euthanasia?

Post by empress2k on 29.06.09 11:15

[quote="Talibah"]
empress wrote:
Personally, I see the act of switching off a machine that is sustaining a non compos mentis individual as an act of necessary mercy. Whereas assisting them whilst they are physically or emotionally incapable but fully aware of the act, is something more akin to true spiritual mercy.

In the case of my friend, her father was cohesive. He could not communicate verbally due to the stroke he had. However when the family gathered to say good by and asked him one more time if he wanted to continue fighting for his life he look upset and turned away from all of them to let them know that they were out of their minds. My friend was his favorite child and she got his finaly kiss before they turned off the machines. I really don't see it much different from the story you have mentioned except that he was a 78 year old male..Smile
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