asetian and luciferianism help...

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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Ankhhape on 26.08.09 16:35

Jonathan, I'll remind you that this forum is titled "Community for Real Life Vampires and Other Beings of Darkness"
and the room this is in is title "Vampirism: Metaphysics and Magick"

RudraShiva has every right to be in here talking about these topics.

Perhaps it is you (and everyone else that doesn't wish to 'discuss') any of these concepts that should not participate here?
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Jonathan on 26.08.09 16:46

This forum is about vampirism. It would be nice if people knew about it if they wish to join debates in here. Otherwise, as it was said by others, there are many other forums out there discussing such things. This community was created to discuss vampirism and Asetianism, which is not debated in other places where people lack the knowledge. The lack of enlightening debates over what MATTERS, is what is driving the better users of this forum away, people like Maktub, Victor, Talibah, Syrianeh, Aghrab, Helliana, Karnath and many others that only rarely participate lately, when the level of the discussions being held has dropped.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Jonathan on 26.08.09 16:49

Oh and I never said I did not wish to discuss, I merely said I agree with Elendor, Aghrab and Victor in their opinion about spirituality. Smile
Their opinions match the ones I have been having feedback in terms of real occultists for a long time, and besides, they also match what Master Luis Marques explains in the Asetian Bible. Smile
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by godofbattle on 26.08.09 17:05

Victor wrote:
RudraShiva wrote:I forgot this:

Elendor wrote:I also disagree that everyone's higher self is divine

I donīt know if everyoneīs self is divine. I believe it is. It is important for me to believe it because if I wouldnīt, then my path in life would be pointless. I think everyone and everything is divine, just because they exist. We are all a part of Chaos. We come from it. We all have our Kia, and Kia is our inner connection with the outer Chaos. The goal is make youself conscious of this and to make your Kia / Free Will more powerfull so it can survive to the Cosmic bondage of ignorance and oblivion.
I obviously agree with Elendor on this. Like him, I also am not fond of such pinky views of spirituality and rather embrace the Universe as it is. If every being was divine, then divinity would be a very incomplete concept, an ugly, dumb thing...
The vast majority of beings out there live without living... without goals besides earning money, getting a better job, or breeding a horde of new kids. There is nothing divine about the mundanes. Humans are not divine. Just like their biggest condemnation is their mortal nature... the human Soul is not immortal, and that's the central principle in Vampirism. What clearly distinguishes a Vampire from a Human, an Immortal from a Mortal... it's how the Vampire Soul lives forever... and the human decays and dies through the process of reincarnation. That is what distinguishes the Children of the Gods from mankind.

Thinking that the rapist drug addict next door is divine and a God in his own way, I'm sorry, but that's just far too fluffy for the type of spirituality we deal in here.
. I agree with you mundane lives are far to dull for them to be divine. Any divine being could not help but see past a dull existance and crave something more because they are more than just human.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Jonathan on 26.08.09 17:18

godofbattle wrote:
Victor wrote:
RudraShiva wrote:I forgot this:

Elendor wrote:I also disagree that everyone's higher self is divine

I donīt know if everyoneīs self is divine. I believe it is. It is important for me to believe it because if I wouldnīt, then my path in life would be pointless. I think everyone and everything is divine, just because they exist. We are all a part of Chaos. We come from it. We all have our Kia, and Kia is our inner connection with the outer Chaos. The goal is make youself conscious of this and to make your Kia / Free Will more powerfull so it can survive to the Cosmic bondage of ignorance and oblivion.
I obviously agree with Elendor on this. Like him, I also am not fond of such pinky views of spirituality and rather embrace the Universe as it is. If every being was divine, then divinity would be a very incomplete concept, an ugly, dumb thing...
The vast majority of beings out there live without living... without goals besides earning money, getting a better job, or breeding a horde of new kids. There is nothing divine about the mundanes. Humans are not divine. Just like their biggest condemnation is their mortal nature... the human Soul is not immortal, and that's the central principle in Vampirism. What clearly distinguishes a Vampire from a Human, an Immortal from a Mortal... it's how the Vampire Soul lives forever... and the human decays and dies through the process of reincarnation. That is what distinguishes the Children of the Gods from mankind.

Thinking that the rapist drug addict next door is divine and a God in his own way, I'm sorry, but that's just far too fluffy for the type of spirituality we deal in here.
. I agree with you mundane lives are far to dull for them to be divine. Any divine being could not help but see past a dull existance and crave something more because they are more than just human.

Exactly...
I agree with your words.

If everyone would be divine, then divinity wouldn't be so special and different from everything else. It would turn the concept of divine into mundane.

Not everyone can be a God. Each has their own role in the bigger scheme of the Universe. Smile
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Ankhhape on 26.08.09 17:31

The people you mentioned aren't coming to this forum for other reasons, not the reasons you stated.

Yes, the forum is about Vampirism 'AND other beings of Darkness" and this particular thread is in Metaphysics and Magick, is that so hard to understand?
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by RudraShiva on 26.08.09 17:31

Hello Jonathan.

Jonathan wrote:Another remark, the Egyptians did not make a distinction between the soul and the spirit. The concept that more similarly describes our own western definitions is the Ba, which is the soul/spirit, and that is not immortal.

And so what? Do you know anything else apart from Egyptian magic? In many traditions the soul is not the same thing as the spirit. In Gnosticism it is not. In Tantra it is not. For Franz Bardon they were different parts of your magical anatomy too. Even in modern, white magic like the works of Donnald Kraig the Spirit is different from the soul.

The Spirit is the deepest part of your being according to some systems. It is your connection with the Pleroma of the Gnostics, with the Bramahn of the Tantrikas, with the Chaos of the Chaotes and Satanists and so on. For the Aghoris, who are followers of the Vama Marga path, the left hand path of Tantra, everything is part of the Divine. That is why they go against the laws of society. That is why they work with the powers of Death and with primal and wrathful feminine goddess such as the Great Kali. In short, they work with things that are rejected by the "holy authorities" in order to trascend duality / Maya.

Jonathan wrote:Rudra says that if the human soul will perish and die, then he sees no point in living. This shows why mankind created so many fake religions, in ways to find faith in believing that they would not die. This is exactly the same as the paths that see every human as divine, an example of spiritual weakness, and an emotional excuse to live with less fear. It's a reflection of a scared mind, that is so afraid to die, that must enter the delusion that he is divine and immortal, in order to overcome his own inner fears.

I know it is hard for you to understand that there are more than one spiritual path out there, but please, next time you should get more information on the things you write about. So now the Aghoris, the Gnostics who were true warriors and in some cases fought against the tyranny of the church and the Satanists of the ONA with all the terrorism and human sacrifices that they have commited, just to name a few of the traditions that view everything as part of the Divine, are a bunch of weak minded people and an example of spiritual weakness.

It seems that you , and by you I mean you, Jonathan, but also Victor and Aghrab donīt understand what the statement "everything is part of the Divine" means. It doesnīt mean that you are already immortal and a god. It doesnīt mean that everyone is in the same level of spiritual development. It means that God is everything and that duality is an illusion of your mind. It also means, of course, that everybody has a Spirit/Kia/Acausal Charge/Black Flame/Divine Spark. And this means that, in theory, everybody is able to get "spiritual liberation".

Jonathan wrote:The Asetian Soul is not the same as the human soul

The average human soul dies everytime your physical shell is destroyed. This doesnīt mean, however, that the deepest part of your being will also be destroyed (this obviously only assuming that you accpet the hypothesis of another "spiritual body" beyond the soul). The majority of people, then, are part of the Samsara/Maya/Cosmic bondage whose main characteristic is ignorance about your self and about reality. In this context, it is possible that, yes, the Asetian soul would be different from the human one and maybe is not destroyed when their physical aspect dies. In my opinion, this would put them one step beyond the prison we live in. However they still would have a Spirit as, in my opinion, Spirit and Soul are not incompatible.

Jonathan wrote:Yes, humans can achieve enlightening by evolution and immortality, but that is a gift that only the Gods and their Children may provide

But this is not a Left Hand Perspective on the Spiritual world (I think the Asetians consider themselves LHP). At least in my opinion, since it assumes some kind of slavery towards the Gods and Goddesses. The Western Left Hand Path mentality goes around the idea of "spiritual rebellion". The relationship between the mortal and the Divine is based not on the submission of the former.

Jonathan wrote:They are not made out of chaos, they are part of the essence of Aset. Humans, however, are born out of the chaos, having their souls being formed out of water drops from Nun, the oceans of nothingness and chaos.

That is according to the Asetians. It is, however, a new perspective on the whole "Chaos is the only thing real" idea that is so common nowadays and that is why I am interested in Asetianism. However, remember, it is just one more perspective.

I have not read the Asetian Bible yet, just the little introduction that is on their website. And even in that little part it is stated that they study many different systems of spirituality. I canīt understand, then, how it is so hard for you to understand that there are more things out there apart from Egyptian spirituality.

I think I have answered the most important points of your post.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by RudraShiva on 26.08.09 17:37

And yes, this forum is about Metaphysics and Magick, and this post is about Luciferianism and Asetianism. If you donīt want to read other theories, views and perspectives then maybe you should close this post.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Daniel09 on 26.08.09 17:55

I really don't think that's necessary. A thread is not just for an idea and people who agree with it. Everyone is allowed to voice their opinions on the matter and present their knowledge. No one has haltered you in any way, merely disagreed with you. Live with it, is about all that I can say about that.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Jonathan on 26.08.09 17:58

Of course there are many other things apart from Egyptian spirituality. Personally I prefer to go to the source and essence truly passed down by immortals than just new age theories created by men.

As far as the LHP comments you made, the Asetians have no concept of slavery to the divine powers, since they ARE the divine powers. Just like they don't need any silly spiritual rebellion, since they expose themselves as the leading spiritual powers on Earth. So they have nothing to rebel against, being themselves at the top of the food chain. Their mysticism and practices, however, are very different from most concepts found in modern Western occultism, that is true.

Oh and no need to bring what Gnosticism, Tantra, Satanism, Wicca or the Aliens from Mars believe about the Ba (Soul). I have read about it, and I don't really give a damn.

We just disagree, and there's no problem in that, nor does it matter. Who cares.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Ankhhape on 26.08.09 18:04

Well Jonathan,
The study of Luciferianism is part of Asetianism, it is recommended in the AB and we were discussing it.

Now tell me why something as 'silly' as Luciferianism is studied by Asetians?
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Jonathan on 26.08.09 18:08

That does not mean they agree with it. I am sure they also study Christiany and every other religion. Asetians are incredible evolved beings who know literally about everything, they study every religion, that does not mean agreement. I am sure that in many many things Luciferianism IS incompatible with Asetianism. I just presented a detail when Luciferianism would be seen as weak by an Asetian. Nothing else. That is very well expressed in the concepts of spirituality presented within the AB.

But you don't seem to get what I said, so I won't go over it again. Just nevermind...
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Ankhhape on 26.08.09 18:14

And so it is with us! Studying something doesn't mean you agree with it I agree with you there, but you'll never know what you agree with and don't unless you study it.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Ankhhape on 26.08.09 18:17

And when I learn things like about Luciferiansim I posted my understanding of them for all of you interested to read and discuss, whether I understand them correctly or not or whether they are ultimately correct or not (which trust me I will never post another thing here).
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Jonathan on 26.08.09 18:18

Obviously. I agree with that, and as I said before: been there, done that. Just moved over it. I wasn't even the only one to say that. I believe Victor explained that detail very well, to some people, some things look deep and meaningful, but when we find deeper knowledge, suddenly those things start sounding too shallow and insignificant to us.

I find Luciferianism insignificant, and in many ways, weak spirituality. Have a problem with that? It's just an opinion, and we are here to exchange opinions. Move over it!

So much arguing over something so little...
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by RudraShiva on 26.08.09 18:22

Having in mind that I have not read the Asetian Bible yet, I would say that Luciferianism and Aetianism can be friends. This is only possible, obviously, if by Luciferianism we donīt mean the Gnostic Anti Cosmic Luciferianism / Satanism represented by the Temple of the Black Light since the idea of a superior Chaos over an inferior Cosmos (and the soul is part of the Cosmos according to them) is incomaptible with the Asetian teachings, obviously.

However from the little I have read about the Asetians here and on their website, they sound very Left Hand Path and even Luciferian (see the works of Michael Ford) to me. For example:

"This acceptance of darkness and light is a central point in the Asetian tradition, understanding that only through the acknowledgement of these two forces combined inside every one of us and the cooperation and balance between them, can allow a true fulfillment of the individual as a whole, beign complete"

This is from their website. And it sounds very much like the modern Satanic/Luciferian thought a la Michael Ford or The Order of Nine Angles to me.

There are also other quotes around their website that seems to be very Left Hand Path.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Jonathan on 26.08.09 18:23

That I do agree, Rudra.

Different than the concepts we were discussing before.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by RudraShiva on 27.08.09 14:03

For those of you interested in traditional Luciferianism (althought I donīt like that term, but itīs ok) here is some material that may be of interest. These pieces of information have to do, first, with an hypothetical connection between Asetian and Luciferian / Gnostic mythology, second, with a possible connection between general Egyptian gods and Luciferian angelic forces, and third, with the concept of immortality and human spirit from a Luciferian and Gnostic point of view.

This material is from the book "The Pillars of Tubal-Cain" by Nigel Jackson and Michael Howard.

"In Pharaonic Egypt we find reference to the class of divine emissaries called the Urshu, or "Watchers", a term which, as we see, is of great significance, and the pre-dynastic race of demi-gods called the Followers of Horus." (pag 6)

"At Abydos the god Osiris was worshipped as the leader of the Seven Sages or Seven Builders (a possible connection with the Seven Cosmic Archons of Gnostic cosmology?). Each wore on their crowns the symbol of the uraeus or Egyptian cobra raised to strike. This represented the cosmic fire brought down from the heavens to Earth by the Elder Gods. Osiris is associated with both the solar archangel Mikael and the Persian god of fire and light Ormuzd. In the Luciferian Tradition, however, Osiris is one of the avatars of the archangel known as the Lightbearer who, as Azazel , led the rebellion of the fallen angels or Watchers during the war in Heaven" (pag Cool

" In the angelic mythos of Yezidistan, which we examined in chapter one, the Great Angel Melek Taus is identified with Azazel or Azazil. He is depicted as the Black Snake, the original serpent of wisdom in the Garden of Eden. His other divine epithet is Lasifarus, the Kurdish form of the Lightbearer. His links with Mars are resumed in his Hebraic allonym as the angel of Mars Zamael or Samael, who is also identified with the Edenic serpent. This may stem back to the Egyptian concept of the planet Mars as Ra Horakhty, or the "Red Horus", and connects with the antediluvian mysteries of the Servants or Followers of Horus. They were the divine lineage of the Shemsu-Hor who ruled pre-dynastic Egypt prior to its mortal sovereigns." (pag 33)

"If then, being made of Life and Light, you learn that you are made of them, you will go back into Life and Light."

The existential problem of "fallen" humanity is defined in terms of the ignorance of our true, unborn and immortal nature, of misidentification and entanglement with the impermanent world of material appearances, of the consequent limitation, amnesia and suffering experienced therein. The key to release and mystical "regeneration" lies whithin, through the realisation of our unfallen essence, in the realm of gnosis or transcendental knowledge" (pag 35)

In my opinion some of the connections between Egyptian mythological forms and the more Luciferian and Gnostic ones are very weak, however it is up to you to decide what to believe. In any case, it is an interesting subject.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Jonathan on 27.08.09 15:08

The pre-dynastic race of demi-gods, entitled in here as the Followers of Horus and its connections to Shemsu-Hor, described as a divine lineage that ruled the Egyptian empire in the pre-dynastic, looks like a very direct connection to the Asetians and their lineage when they used to be the leaders of Egypt in the Sep Tepy period, before the rulership being passed down to mankind in later dynasties.

There is also the detail telling about the usage of the Uraeus (Egyptian cobra) in the crowns, which may align with the Viperines, also known as the Lineage of the Serpent, the Asetian lineage that was known to have leadership and their renown connections with snake/serpent/cobra symbolism in so many ways.

Also curious the mention of seven sages / seven builders, given the concepts we all know of the Asetian Sacred Pillars, being precisely 7 frameworks and sigils that embody the workings and foundations of the whole Universe.

Do you think that any of these parallels may be real, or just mere coincidences?
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by RudraShiva on 27.08.09 15:41

Hello Jonathan.

Jonathan wrote:The pre-dynastic race of demi-gods, entitled in here as the Followers of Horus and its connections to Shemsu-Hor, described as a divine lineage that ruled the Egyptian empire in the pre-dynastic, looks like a very direct connection to the Asetians

Thatīs true. It sounds totally "Asetian". In this book there are more references to a period in which the Elder Gods walked on Egypt and made civilization possible. The first thing that came to my mind when reading this was Asetian mythology.

Well I am not a scholar on the subject, and the history of mythology is of not much interest to me, so I canīt tell you if these parallels are real. However nowadays there is an, in my opinion, anoying tendency on making the greatest numbers of correlations possible between gods and goddesses that just share one or two characteristic. This is very obvious in more New Age and Wiccan thought in which, for example, Kali and Isthar are views as the same thing just because they have a very sexual nature. Even in the system of Michel Ford sometimes it is stated that Lilith and Kali are the same being! What the fuck?!

So, having this in mind, I see these parallels as very weak. It seems that for the egyptians, the cobraīs meaning was wisdom. The serpent on the Garden of Eden also symbolizes wisdom. Is the serpent an universal, archetypal principle? Or maybe the explanation for this is a more mundane and down to earth theory, based on history and on cultural connections? Or maybe we are just assuming a lot of thing. Maybe the snake which is Satan and the cobra which is Uraeus donīt have much in common except one or two basic characteristics.

I donīt know and I canīt tell you about it.

However I can tell you a few things on the number 7. 7 is a very holy number and is present in a lot of different systems. Innanaīs / Isthar sacred number is also 7 and she is a goddess of civilization too. 7 is actually the number of cosmic energies according to some teachings. 7 are the numbers of Archons who rule over the Cosmos. Traditionally, 7 are also the planets (in the magical sense, obviously) that makes the macrocosmic powers. In short, 7 is the number of Cosmic creation and completion within a lot of systems.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Jonathan on 27.08.09 16:19

RudraShiva wrote:Well I am not a scholar on the subject, and the history of mythology is of not much interest to me, so I canīt tell you if these parallels are real. However nowadays there is an, in my opinion, anoying tendency on making the greatest numbers of correlations possible between gods and goddesses that just share one or two characteristic. This is very obvious in more New Age and Wiccan thought in which, for example, Kali and Isthar are views as the same thing just because they have a very sexual nature. Even in the system of Michel Ford sometimes it is stated that Lilith and Kali are the same being! What the fuck?!
I totally understand what you mean and agree with you about this. It not only gets annoying, as ends up being negative for a proper study of different godforms and deities, since by such an extreme syncretism of divine forces we end up losing many important details that belong strictly to just a single god/goddess.
That is actually related with one of my personal annoyances with highly eclectic spiritual systems, by the whole amount of information that is lost in the adaptations, personalization and mixing of theories, resulting in a poorer tradition or system. But that's just my personal opinion.

RudraShiva wrote:However I can tell you a few things on the number 7. 7 is a very holy number and is present in a lot of different systems. Innanaīs / Isthar sacred number is also 7 and she is a goddess of civilization too. 7 is actually the number of cosmic energies according to some teachings. 7 are the numbers of Archons who rule over the Cosmos. Traditionally, 7 are also the planets (in the magical sense, obviously) that makes the macrocosmic powers. In short, 7 is the number of Cosmic creation and completion within a lot of systems.
Yeah this is true. We can find the number 7 as having a greater religious and spiritual significance in many traditions. In the Asetian culture, for example, we have 7 Scorpion Daemons of the ancient world (the servitors of Aset, described in myth and ruled by Serket), in terms of subtle anatomy, our energy system is formed by 7 primary Shen Centers (paralleled with the 7 Chakras) and 7 secondary Shen Centers... and at last the 7 Sacred Pillars, a central concept in the Asetian spiritual tradition, and one that still holds many secrets to most of us, given the complex interpretations around it, where they are seen as secret keys of initiatory thought, Universal principles of the worlds tapestry, schools of thought of the inner mind, magickal sigils/seals, and the list goes on. I believe the Aset Ka could publish a full book just about the Sacred Pillars without being out of content, or even a book set. lol
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Elyon on 16.09.09 4:20

RudraShiva wrote:Then, according to Vampirism, what is the path that we, poor humans, should take if we are going to be destroyed? Is there something we could do?

I donīt agree. The human soul may be mortal. But the soul is NOT the same thing as the Spirit in some traditions. Maybe this is very fluffy to you, but let me tell you that it is not so "pink" to the Tantrika who views everything as part of the Divine. Althought it is possible that you view Tantra and the Vama Marga tradition as something utterly inferior to Vampirism, of course. But still let me tell you that in some traditions, like Tantra, reincarnation is in fact a part of the Maya (illusory) condition the majority of humans lives in. That means that, for them, reincarnation is not the goal. The goal is to trascend it by uniting themselves with the Bramahn, which is the spiritual reality beyond our phenomenological world. And, in this context, everyone has a Spirit. Because it is the Spirit / "acausal charge" / Kia or whatever the name what makes you a being.

Now, if nobody except vampires, anticosmic satanists, draconians and the chosen children of some alien god have an opportunity in existence, I canīt understand what the point in living, for a human being, is. If I am going to be destroyed by the Cosmic energies once my physical body dies, regardless of what I do, then I think this is not a very evolutionary perspective on reality.

Fortunately, that is not how I view things.

And now it will be me who will sound like an arrogant: the next time you talk about the Divine, donīt use so human and basic conceptions. For a person that embraces the universe as it is, that is very strange.

I think that the immortality which one posesses or not is due to his/her personal power, and the ability to retain the Core Self intact through the reincarnation cycle. The Spirit of no being can ever truly be destroyed, but it can be thoroughly transmuted. So, if we take Asetians as an example, their Spirit has enough power to retain what it has accumulated or originally started out as, opposed to a human who's Self most probably won't make it intact through the cycle because its Will and personal power are not enough to do so. It is why so many of them/you, even when trained cannot use magick properly, becuse their visualizations are not backed up by real power produced by their energy. but the ability to use magick, also does not grant one immortality per se, since the tumult of the spiritual transit between life states is a very powerful torent, so not even all who have mastered magickal arts can survive it. Carlos Castaneda, for all his faults, made a very interesting point of it in his works.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by RudraShiva on 16.09.09 6:52

Hello Elyon.

Well, I think this subject is pure speculation. Obviously I canīt talk about "the truth", I canīt say if we are all immortals, if we are not, if the spirit exists or if we are anything more than mere flesh.

There are certains things that need to be considered before giving an answer:

First, the perspective or paradigm from which you view these things. For example, reading The Apohenion (by Peter J. Carroll) one may ask: "ok, if spirit/consciousness is a consequence of matter, as "panpsychism" states, then consciousness can not exist "outside" the flesh".

On the other hand, if you consider the spirit to be separated from matter, or having an existence of its own, itīs logical to assume that your essence may exist beyond death.

(However, I think that althought panpsychim regard spirit as a fundamental characteristic of matter, it doesnīt deny the possibility of "reincarnation" or of an existence beyond death)

Second, it is very important to be clear on the terminology we use. I donīt like using very "abstract" terms such as "Higher Self" unless it is defined in a concrete way. Higher Self is, in my opinion, a completely subjective concept. Is it a part of a "spiritual anatomy"? Is it a product of your mental activity/psychology? Is it real or an "illusion"? Is it something (I mean if it has existence) or just an activity?

There are traditions in which (as I interpret them) there is no self. Behind this reality there is, actually, nothing. If this no-thing-ness is the same thing as Chaos or the Duat, or the Void I think it is irrelevant, as it is just pure speculation and "mental gymnastics". If you go to Qabalah, you can get lost in the countless states of existence and consciousness. You have the nothingness, then the thing/Being/Pure Consciousness or whatever. Then the different planes, and so on.

And sometimes, because in modern literature we have concepts which are not very well explained and we borrow things from countless traditions, we mix everything up, and then, nowadays we donīt know if, for example, Chaos is that hypothetical supra-coinsciousness or if it is something beyond it. We donīt know if Bramahn is the Cosmic Consciousness, if it is something different or whatever.

So, when talking about immortality, what do we mean by that term? By answering to this question, you need to give a definition of what we are. That is, what is that deep essence that can survive death? Consciousness? Self-awarness? Will? Personality? (and that implies, of course, memories, which is something material)

And then we have the concept of duality and the trascendence of duality. If spirit is separated from the flesh, does trascendence mean the realization that spirit is not separated from it? But, if this is so, how can survive consciousness after death ? And, is the Spirit the same thing as consciousness?

So, to make things more simple, I regard spirit as Will. And Will with a capital W, that is, a power that is beyond the ego and even rationality. Also I make no differentation between Will and Self-awareness. However, I donīt regard consciousness as the same thing as self-awareness because in my opinion, consciousness is something material and an activity of your brain and mind. Consciousness can be changed: everytime we sleep we could say that we have not consciousness (unless you are trained in astral and dream techniques obviously), however, we know that sleeping is not the same thing as death (we sleep and therefore we donīt have consciousness, however we know sleeping people are not dead)

So, can we say we are consciousness? I donīt think so.

The problem is, therefore, the terminology we use. From an Eastern point of view, I think "immortality" wouldnīt be the manipulation of any subtle body but, actually, a realization. To be eternal (which from this perspective is a more accurate concept than immortality) would be an state of existence, and not really "something" that can be "achieved".

Yes, tantra recognizes the existence of a subtle body and it is for this reason that, in tanta, reincarnation is something "bad": It is something to be trascended. So "immortality" from this point of view is not an eternal cycle of reincarnation because this would be considered pure hell.

Now, in Asetianism and many other traditions things are different. And this is great. I donīt regard reincarnation as something inferior to that "transcendental" state of the Tantrika because Iīm not dogmatic and I donīt believe in any absolute truth.

Well, this was a very long post! What I want to make clear with it, however, is that when talking about these subjects, we need to use a common and defined terminology and we need to know from which perspective and paradigm we come. If we donīt do this, then we will never understand each other and we wonīt arrive to any significant conclussion.
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Elyon on 16.09.09 7:20

I cannot go into things I want to say right now, because I am totally dumbstruck how sexy your post is ^^

and no Rudra, it is not too big Very Happy
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Re: asetian and luciferianism help...

Post by Talibah on 16.09.09 7:45

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