Asetian-Human Existence

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Asetian-Human Existence

Post by Ankhhape on 28.08.09 7:19

In this
thread I would like to discuss a subject that was brought up briefly on another
thread and hopefully gain some understanding from it.





What is the
point of human existence?


If our souls
are not immortal to what end would any enlightenment or gnosis be towards?


What is our
role in Asetianism, if any?


Is the human
soul part of the reincarnation cycle?


If so, is
there a continuation of our spiritual development in the next incarnation, but
even so to what end, we will never be a Divine Asetian?


Is Asetianism the
highest echelon of reality?


Is it the
only reality?
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by RudraShiva on 28.08.09 10:40

This is a very metaphysical subject, obviously. If I could give a definite answer to the problem of death and life, probably I would be the new messiah. And I am not. Also I can not speak for Asetianism as I havenīt recieved the Asetian Bible yet. But I can tell you about how the soul and the human spirit is seen in other systems, according to my understanding and interpretation of course, since this is a very difficult subject and sometimes there are ideas that are contradictory.

You asked if the human soul is part of the reincarnation cycle. Well to give you an answer first it would be a good idea to know what the soul is. In "Initiation into Hermetics" Franz Bardon postulated that the soul is the so called "astral body". Now, in this context, the soul is, then, different from the spirit, which is immortal according to this author. Your soul is mortal, in the same way your physical body is, and when the later dies, the astral body will be consumed by the cosmic fate too. Franz Bardon defined the soul as "the seat of all the attributes that the immortal spirit possess". He also talked about four temperaments that the soul may "show". For him, the astral body is connected or related to your personal character. It has also the seats for both, your normal consciousness and your subconscious.

Now the spirit seems to be your "I". Bardon defined it as your "spiritual I". It has four main characteristics: the will, the intellect, life and feelings and "the unification of all three elements in the "I" consciousness".

In Liber Null & Psychonaut, Carroll talked about the Kia. Now, Kia is not your consciousness, it seems to be something more "ancient". This idea is also present in Qabalah. In the Tree of Life, Kether, the highest point on the tree, doesnīt represent your consciousness, but the "raw material of consciousness" according to Dion Fortune in her Mystical Qabalah.
Kia is defined, then, as something formless. It is the life force of Chaos that gives movement and existence to both, the macrocosm (the universe) and the microcosm (you), when views from a dualistic perspective. The Self, on the other hand, is defined by Carrol as "the point at which the formless life force (or Kia) touches experience". In essence, we are nothing more and nothing less that pure formless and chaotic energy. That is the deepest part of our being. It is the Black Flame of the AntiCosmic satanists that connects us with the primal draconian goddess Tiamat.

Kia is also indentifed with your free will and, since it is a part of Chaos, it is also immortal. It is both, the cause of reincarnation and of liberation.

Peter also talks about the aether, which is like an intermediary between the formless Chaos/Kia and matter. From a microcosmic perspective, the aether is an intermediary between your Kia and your thougths. Therefore, your Kia can not be your conscioussnes. Kia is not reasoning nor intellect.

The aether could be compared to the ether of Qabalistic cosmology. And the ether is part of the astral plane and, then, part of your soul or astral body.

Therefore we could hypothesize about the Soul being a part of yourself that still has some form and that has to do with your personality. The Spirit, on the other hand, would be beyond the soul since it is formless and the ultimate reality beyond duality.

If we accept the above ideas as real, then we could say that everytime we die, our personality also dies. If a fucker shots me on the head, I will die and "RudraShiva", the "persona", will also die. However, as an immortal spirit, my life force will reincarnate again. The problem here is that my sense of I will be lost. I wont know about my self. For this reason, in magic, there seems to be a deeper part of your being beyond your "ego" or personality: your Self. The self is the wholeness of my being. It is also the True Will of the Thelemitas.

For the AntiCosmic Satanists, your Self is connected to the Dark Gods of Kaos. Your self, within this paradigm, is already divine, as it is a fallen Divine Spark. Your ego (and here your physical body is also part of your ego) on the other hand, is not divine. It is "hylic", that is just matter according to Gnostic terminology, the lowest part of your being. However they donīt see everybody as possesing a Spirit, since they are "elitists". I donīt know, however, if this view of the human being is based of some kind of "spiritual anatomy", that is, that the majority of people is just matter without spirit (hylics) or if it is based more on a "metaphorical" sense.

From what I have written, I think it is obvious that for me, your Spirit is an essential part of your being, so everybody has a one. If you donīt have a Kia, then you are not a being.

By the way, the ideas about Kia and Chaos are very similar to what you can find in Tantra.
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by RudraShiva on 28.08.09 11:10

Ankhhape wrote: is there a continuation of our spiritual development in the next incarnation?

In my opinion, of course there is. But in order to have a "continuation of our spiritual development" we should have a "spiritual side" in our personality. I think (Iīm not sure) that your Self is connected to Tipharet on the Tree of Life. In my opinion, this is the only thing of your personality that survives death. The rest will dissapear. From my spiritual practices I came to this conclussion. I donīt know if you can recover some fragments of your previous lives in a rational way, maybe visiting the so called Akashic Records. But to me it is obvious that, in a irrational/acausal way, you can get some information about your past. In my opinion, one way to do this is by working with divine forces. Althought I am a male, I have always been attracted to the "dark side of feminity" in ways that I couldnīt understand. And then, when I grew up, I discovered that there was a spiritual path in which the "Dark Primal Feminine" is the main Goddess. Prior to my knowledge about some dark gods, I could describe some of their attributes that, once I knew about them, were confirmed.

This irrational knowledge Iīm talking about is instinct.

Also, I remember doing magic when I was a child, like charging objects, focusing my will throught symbols and some astral techinques. Obviously, by that time I didnīt know that was "magic". For me it was something normal.

It is obvious to me that some of the most spiritual things in your life will be present in your next one, althought you need to grasp them in a very irrational way that is only possible through pure self knowledge.
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by Ankhhape on 28.08.09 11:59

In the AB we read that:

The new world becomes populated with life forms and life was evolving
This is not human life though?

The Gods created spiritual souls, so there would be more to their existence than just the physical realm

They created the cycle of incarnation, death and also rebirth
A mortal Ba was created in each human being

Asetianism is a tradition based on balance and it embraces duality.
Everything is formed by a double side or face, each opposed and attracted by the other

Acceptance of light and dark is a central point of Asetianism
The most important goal in life is to develop the Self
Again I ask to what end are we developing the Self?

We are told not everyone achieves enlightenment during their incarnation
That Asetians are incarnated divine souls
But weren’t human souls created from the Gods also?
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by Jonathan on 28.08.09 12:33

Ankhhape wrote:In the AB we read that:

The new world becomes populated with life forms and life was evolving
This is not human life though?
That is all life. Plants, animals, bacteria, fungus, virus... that refers to primordial life development on Earth.

Ankhhape wrote:We are told not everyone achieves enlightenment during their incarnation
That Asetians are incarnated divine souls
But weren’t human souls created from the Gods also?
According to the Asetian Bible, human souls are created out of Nun, the waters of chaos. So no, humans were not created FROM the Gods, they were created BY the Gods. They were created FROM chaos. There's a whole world of spiritual difference between those 2 words.

And yes, humans do enter the cycle of reincarnation, of course. That is how spiritual evolution is possible. No one reaches enlightenment or evolution during a single life-time.
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by RudraShiva on 28.08.09 12:36

From what I have read so far on this forum, it seems that the Ba or soul of the Asetians doesnīt have the same spiritual anatomy that the human one. However, I also think that, actually, the "quality" of Asetian refers to a specific degree on their system of initiation or to a specific condition of spiritual development. The Asetians are immortal, but so the Divya of Tantra and the Pneumatic of Gnosticism are.

If the Asetians are able or know how to make the astral body / soul immortal, they are one step beyond average humans when it comes to spiritual development, obviously. I like this path, thatīs why I have an interest in Asetianism. For others, maybe conserving the soul is a blasphemous act, since you will still be a part of the cosmic bondage by doing that. But since this has to do with your own personal path in existence and your own personal freedom, I donīt give a shit about these moralistic Budhas.

Ankhkhape wrote:Again I ask to what end are we developing the Self?


It depends on the spiritual path that you follow. Some will tell you that your goal is to became one with God. Others to became one with Chaos. Others to became a god. Others to reach the Pleroma etc etc. But in the end the answer to this question is up to you. Donīt forget that you are the one who decided over your own life.

I canīt tell you about how the Aset Ka views duality as I donīt have enough material yet. Once I get and read the Asetian Bible, I will tell you.
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by Jonathan on 28.08.09 12:58

RudraShiva wrote:From what I have read so far on this forum, it seems that the Ba or soul of the Asetians doesnīt have the same spiritual anatomy that the human one. However, I also think that, actually, the "quality" of Asetian refers to a specific degree on their system of initiation or to a specific condition of spiritual development. The Asetians are immortal, but so the Divya of Tantra and the Pneumatic of Gnosticism are.

If the Asetians are able or know how to make the astral body / soul immortal, they are one step beyond average humans when it comes to spiritual development, obviously. I like this path, thatīs why I have an interest in Asetianism. For others, maybe conserving the soul is a blasphemous act, since you will still be a part of the cosmic bondage by doing that. But since this has to do with your own personal path in existence and your own personal freedom, I donīt give a shit about these moralistic Budhas.
Rudra,

From my understanding it seems like the Ba/Soul to the Asetians is different from many other traditions out there. It seems to me like they don't make the distinction between Spirit and Soul that you are making (since other traditions do, I know). The Ba represents the gathering of all your spiritual Self, your inner personality, your Will, your Higher Self, your Spirit, your very core. The Ba is the sum of all your non-embodied parts... your energy system, your aura, your Shen systems, your meridians, etc. I may be mistaken, though, but that is my interpretation from all that I have studied. There are users in here far more fluent than I am in Asetianism that may aid in shedding some light into these concepts though.

I do agree however that the Asetian soul/Ba would have a different subtle anatomy than its human counterpart. One of these examples are the structures known as tendrils, many times poorly explained and misinterpreted in other vampiric traditions. Those structures are commonly used for energy manipulation but most often for draining techniques and psychic attack, and are not present in the human subtle body. However, humans do have a Ba as well. The biggest diffeerence in genetical terms that I can find is that the Ba of an Asetian is created out of the Violet Flame, which represents the energy/core of Aset herself, while the human Ba is the energy of chaos turn into life, or in other words, chaos set in motion.
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by Ankhhape on 28.08.09 13:03

Jonathan wrote:
Ankhhape wrote:In the AB we read that:

The new world becomes populated with life forms and life was evolving
This is not human life though?
That is all life. Plants, animals, bacteria, fungus, virus... that refers to primordial life development on Earth.

Ankhhape wrote:We are told not everyone achieves enlightenment during their incarnation
That Asetians are incarnated divine souls
But weren’t human souls created from the Gods also?
According to the Asetian Bible, human souls are created out of Nun, the waters of chaos. So no, humans were not created FROM the Gods, they were created BY the Gods. They were created FROM chaos. There's a whole world of spiritual difference between those 2 words.

And yes, humans do enter the cycle of reincarnation, of course. That is how spiritual evolution is possible. No one reaches enlightenment or evolution during a single life-time.
Ok, I see your point with our creation 'by' & 'from'.
So, how is spiritual evolution possible even with the cycle of incarnation? And to what end? What is the goal?
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by Jonathan on 28.08.09 13:18

What purpose would your life have if not to perfect yourself and make yourself a better person? By better I don't mean anything related with the social concepts of good and evil, but by being a more evolved individual. That can only be attained by knowledge.
This is my personal view though... I can't speak for the Asetians or the Aset Ka.
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by Ankhhape on 28.08.09 13:21

RudraShiva; here is some text from the AB concerning their view on duality

Asetianism is a tradition based on balance.It embraces the concept of duality. Everything is formed by a double side or face, each opposed and attracted by the other.

Central to Asetianism is the acceptance of light and darkness, acknowledgment of these two forces combined inside us and through their balance leads to true fulfillment and completeness of the individual.

The most important goal in life is to develop the Self
Asetianism promotes evolution (spiritual I would think?)

Embracing the Asetian tradition, just by itself, is a main catalyst of change. This is not something physical or tangible, but a deep manifestation of the Self.

Does this pertain to all of us, or just Adepts, or simply just Asetians?
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by RudraShiva on 28.08.09 14:07

Hello Jonathan and Ankhkhape.

Jonathan wrote:From my understanding it seems like the Ba/Soul to the Asetians is different from many other traditions out there. It seems to me like they don't make the distinction between Spirit and Soul that you are making

Uhmmm yes, I think you are right, thatīs the impression I have too. Maybe they donīt acknowledge the existence of a spiritual reality beyond the soul, maybe they see the soul as the deepest part of our essence or maybe the spirit is irrelevant to them. I donīt know however it is an interesting subject.

However I would like to go deeper into the discussion on the spirit and ba, not to discredit the teachings of the Aset Ka, but to give some different perspectives.

Jonathan wrote:The Ba represents the gathering of all your spiritual Self, your inner personality, your Will, your Higher Self

Jonathan wrote:The Ba is the sum of all your non-embodied parts... your energy system, your aura, your Shen systems, your meridians, etc

Well thatīs the description of the soul in, I think, every system I know, thatīs true. The problem with the hypothetical Spirit is that it is supposed to be formless. Actually it is not a part of any anatomy. I even think it is also beyond the Higher Self since this concept is still bound to form and individual existence. Spirit, understood as a part of Chaos, must also be beyond individual existence since it is beyond duality. There are not many spirits, but just one. However there are schools of esoteric thought which also acknowledge the existence of a individual spirit and another, Cosmic (or maybe Acosmic, who knows) Spirit, like in the Dvaita school of Vedanta (if I am not wrong, since I am not into this system)

However you said something VERY interesting Jonathan:

Jonathan wrote:the Ba of an Asetian is created out of the Violet Flame, which represents the energy/core of Aset herself, while the human Ba is the energy of chaos turn into life, or in other words, chaos set in motion

This really surprises me. And maybe this proof that for the Asetians the spirit is irrelevant. Sometimes Chaos (or the realm of the spirit by whatever name it is known) is described in a way that seems to be....BORING. That is, it is nothingness and there is not individual existence there. Even Peter Carroll said that without the embodied spirit "there is not ectasy". I also have some manuscrips from the satanic Temple of THEM in which it is said that in order to become a Dark God, you must retain your ego (by doing that you would be bound to the Cosmic plane). So, maybe, the so called spirit is just irrelevant. The Anti-Cosmic Satanists of the Temple of the Black Light want to remain in Chaos (Spirit) because it is "the ultimate freedom" and "a realm of all potential".

It is true that Chaos is possibility and all potential, but, without a reality to create, what is the point on being there?
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by Jonathan on 28.08.09 14:15

Ankhhape wrote:RudraShiva; here is some text from the AB concerning their view on duality

Asetianism is a tradition based on balance.It embraces the concept of duality. Everything is formed by a double side or face, each opposed and attracted by the other.

Central to Asetianism is the acceptance of light and darkness, acknowledgment of these two forces combined inside us and through their balance leads to true fulfillment and completeness of the individual.

The most important goal in life is to develop the Self
Asetianism promotes evolution (spiritual I would think?)

Embracing the Asetian tradition, just by itself, is a main catalyst of change. This is not something physical or tangible, but a deep manifestation of the Self.

Does this pertain to all of us, or just Adepts, or simply just Asetians?
Asetianism is followed by people of all cultures and natures. It is not only for Vampires and not only for Asetians, even though they (Asetians) are at the core of the path.
It is well known that there and have ever been humans as allies of the Asetian Family, even among the Order's ranks. Not all mankind is rotten and decadent... even though the majority is.
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by Jonathan on 28.08.09 14:18

RudraShiva wrote:However you said something VERY interesting Jonathan:

Jonathan wrote:the Ba of an Asetian is created out of the Violet Flame, which represents the energy/core of Aset herself, while the human Ba is the energy of chaos turn into life, or in other words, chaos set in motion

This really surprises me. And maybe this proof that for the Asetians the spirit is irrelevant. Sometimes Chaos (or the realm of the spirit by whatever name it is known) is described in a way that seems to be....BORING. That is, it is nothingness and there is not individual existence there. Even Peter Carroll said that without the embodied spirit "there is not ectasy". I also have some manuscrips from the satanic Temple of THEM in which it is said that in order to become a Dark God, you must retain your ego (by doing that you would be bound to the Cosmic plane). So, maybe, the so called spirit is just irrelevant. The Anti-Cosmic Satanists of the Temple of the Black Light want to remain in Chaos (Spirit) because it is "the ultimate freedom" and "a realm of all potential".

It is true that Chaos is possibility and all potential, but, without a reality to create, what is the point on being there?
I understand where your thought is heading and can identify with your reasoning. It does make sense. What is potential without giving it form, just like what is possibility without creation...
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Re: Asetian-Human Existence

Post by RudraShiva on 28.08.09 17:00

Hello Ankhkhape, sorry for my delay but I forgot your post concerning duality within the Aset Ka.

As I said in the topic about Luciferianism, that views on duality sounds very famiiar as Michael Ford has the same views on it.

How to understand duality is a very hard subject for me. The problem that I have is that sometimes, the path to trascend duality seems to go through the destruction of opposites while other times it seems to be the opposite idea: to acknowledge both sides of reality. You could say that by doing this, duality is destroyed. I donīt think so, since you are still in a dualistic reality. That is, by accepting the "light side" of life as well as the "dark" one, it may be said that you have attained "wholeness". However, you are still acknowledging the existence of a dark and a light side. From the point of view of Chaos, oppossites doesnīt exist. They have been united (in fact, the so called "reconciliation of oppossites" is the path to trascendence), but they have also been destroyed: in Chaos individual existence doesnīt exist, in the same way as "grupal" or "collective" existence doesnīt. It is usually represented as darkness, but it is not such a concept nor it is light neither. As the root of everything, Chaos must be the union of manifestation. It is not life and it is not death, is the behind of these two phenomena.

Still I donīt know the views of the Aset Ka on duality and how they understand it. They accept and promote the balance of oppossites in order to attain wholeness and individual evolution. However I donīt know if the "dualistic" reality of Darkness and Light would also be destroyed within their system or if it would be maintained in a certain way (when I say "darkness" and "light" I refer to every kind of oppossites, not just "moral" differences)
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