Belief V's Faith

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Belief V's Faith

Post by Talibah on 16.09.09 5:25

I want to ask others their opinion on something. For some it may require some indepth thought, for others it may be a simple question to respond to.

Firstly, I would like to make a distinction between belief and faith by means of a metaphor some may have heard before- for those that may be uncertain.

Pick a chair that is nearby to you. Examine it closely by eye. It is likely you will be looking at a chair you believe will support you because through logical thought, previous experience and knowledge you can see that it is structurally sound and made of the correct materials etc.

Now sit in the chair...At some point, intellectual knowledge can only go so far, thereafter in order to truly experience we have to put our beliefs into action...that is faith!
Intellectual belief without actionable faith is hollow and meaningless.

So, considering the majority of this forums' members are followers of Asetianism, I would like to ask, do you follow out of belief, or faith? (and let us not confuse anything by applying 'blind faith')
What draws you to your conclusions?
Do you believe you need evidence to believe, or is it something else..and if so, what?

I am looking forward to your responses.


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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Jonathan on 16.09.09 12:09

Good question, but I don't have an answer to that yet. Let me meditate first on your concepts and what you said, to see if I can find my own inner answer.

Also, could you answer it yourself and why, Talibah?
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Ankhhape on 16.09.09 13:04

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true

Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing

I fall into the Faith group, I have trust that we are not being misled by Master Marques.
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Daniel09 on 16.09.09 18:47

I would say neither is true for myself. I believe in a delicate balance in believing and having faith. I do have faith in the Aset Ka, but I do not trust them. I give everything and everyone the same chance to be true, and usually work my actions around that assumption. It could be considered unhealthy, but I do learn from liars greatly, and have developed an intuitive sense for when someone is using deception. I believe that I have a good idea of things, but I do not hold a static belief or faith in anything, not even reality or life. It is all... fluid.
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Phoenix on 17.09.09 1:26

Talibah, you are evolving. Your cogent posts are evidence.

I answer your questions first and then the posts of Ankhhape and Daniel.

Your questions: The chair I now sit in exists only in this reality. I do not comment upon its existence in other dimensions or planes. Here and now, my chair is real, has been real and is based on factual experience, not faith.

You commented, "Intellectual belief without actionable faith is hollow and meaningless." I partially, but not fully, agree with that philosophy. Here in the USA, there is a sizeable minority of fundamentalist Christians who have been educated since birth to await the second coming of Christ. They believe dinosaurs and humans cohabitated Earth about 7000 years ago. Scientifically wrong. They attribute numerous happenings to the imminent Armaggedon as described in the fictional "Left Behind" novel series. Even the Catholic Church is not this absurd! They have unshakable, actionable faith but are woefully lacking in any kind of intellectual belief. They have every right to have faith as they do, but I believe that they are a bleating flock of sheeplike lemmings mindlessly following someone else's understanding of "truth" to death in an Arctic sea.
My point is tthe opposite, that we can believe in something that is scientificaly demostratable and recreatable without the need for faith.

I am a follower of Asetianism, because I am called by Aset. That is wholly and undeniably "faith". I have repeatedly asked on this forum for evidence that the AK exists. I have received no concrete documentation except a few comments that. "Yes, the order does exist", and, "I am unconfortable providing documentation". I accept that on faith. Were I not so strongly called by Aset, I would not be here. My "faith" in Her resonates powerfully in this vampiric forum. I challenge those who FULLY read this response to ask themselves why they are here. To play vampire or follow Asetianism (although both are allowed)? To my minimally informed understanding, an Astian is, first and foremost, completely devoted to Her Highness Aset. I include Her presence in my life daily. My faith in Aset permits my belief in the Aset Ka. Waht is your faith, Talibah?

To answer Ankhhape: I still have no documentable, demostratably provable evidence to support any belief that the AK exists. My connection with Aset supports my faith that the the AK is real. Again, "faith", not "belief".

To answer Daniel: Eventually we all come to believe or have faith in something. I would be immensely loyal and trusting of the AK were I have to substantiation of the validity of my loyalty and trust. At this point, I would "faithfully" and "intellectually" love to know the AK better. It is always wise to ask "why".

My longest post ever. Hope it is lucid and meaningful.

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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Talibah on 17.09.09 6:47

Firstly, thank you Phoenix for your kind words. Although I must say that there are times where I must replace evolving with revolving, since many things still chase my understanding round in circles.

I have some very personal feelings about this, some that do not need to be aired publicly, so I wont go into great detail. But, I now know that I have allowed my head to rule my path for too long, so now I am allowing my heart a chance since nothing else has ever come as close to feeling so absolute.

I was once one of those that had a need for proof, some concrete evidence, something of substance to validate my belief - but as with everything, things change. Even if some believe otherwise of me.

The feelings I have cannot be put into words, and I would not even try to do so. But I know I can trust them, even if I do not yet fully understand them.

Do I have faith...? Yes.
Do I understand why yet....? No. But I am working on it.


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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by JWG on 17.09.09 11:57

Words to describe are not possible. True Knowledge is from Within, unexplainable by the limitations of the art of language.

Allowing my Self to be as a Magnet to the Source.
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Aghrab on 17.09.09 22:46

An interesting thread.

My thought on this matter is that those of us who do not need "evidence" to believe in the Aset Ka, are the ones truly touched by the magick that exists in the very name of their Family. Some may not realize, but the Asetian Bible, in the right hands, is enough of an evidence to prove that the Aset Ka exists. With enough knowledge and understanding over history, we can fit the puzzles and understand that everything within Asetianism seems to make perfect sense. Coincidence? I do not believe so.
I understand that this can only be understood by some individuals here, as we all have different views of the Aset Ka. Some of us feel the power and beauty of the Aset Ka within our souls and feel complete knowing they exist, literally 'living for the Asetianism path'... as well as some who are merely interested in their Order and continue to learn only due to the interest, without having a solid belief and faith in their name.

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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Ankhhape on 18.09.09 10:03

Aghrab
My thought on this matter is that those of us who do not need
"evidence" to believe in the Aset Ka, are the ones truly touched by the
magick that exists in the very name of their Family.
I'm not sure that is an entirely fair analysis. You are insinuating that those who require evidence cannot be touched by the essence of Aset. I don't believe that to be true. I for one am extremely overwhelmed at times by the Violet Flame and have been greatly inspired by it, though I have faith in Master Marques and the Order I accept nothing as truth until I know it as such.
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by AnaInDark on 18.09.09 12:51

I don't need any proof. I have all the proof I need in my heart and soul, and what I feel when I realize I am an Asetianist.
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Victor on 18.09.09 13:42

Ankhhape wrote:Aghrab
My thought on this matter is that those of us who do not need
"evidence" to believe in the Aset Ka, are the ones truly touched by the
magick that exists in the very name of their Family.
I'm not sure that is an entirely fair analysis. You are insinuating that those who require evidence cannot be touched by the essence of Aset. I don't believe that to be true. I for one am extremely overwhelmed at times by the Violet Flame and have been greatly inspired by it, though I have faith in Master Marques and the Order I accept nothing as truth until I know it as such.
I can see the point made by Aghrab, although I understand if most would not be able to grasp that reality.

I disagree with Ankhhape's view that we can't accept anything as truth until we have proof. The most magickal things in life are far too subtle for us to have complete proof. Actually, in most esoteric and occult practices, if you need proof to accomplish a ritual or a magickal work, you will fail. That is because the initiate must learn to trust his own powers and the workings of the universe without any proof to be able to accomplish true Work. Trusting what we can see and touch is very easy and holds no secret or power. That is what everyone does. And that is precisely what occultists were able to overcome with the magickal arts.

Even in the Christian Bible we have a story that warns us precisely about that small but important condition of magick. The power without proof. Thomas, the apostle, doubted Jesus resurrection, while all of the other disciples were celebrating. He needed to actually touch Jesus wounds, to believe that it was him and that indeed he had the power to return to life. This story does not describe the wisest of the disciples for sure, but portraits the weakest link. The one that did not reach illumination and initiation after all his time with the master. The story is just a symbol, to how in the attempt to reach true knowledge, we should not seek for definitive proof like every common mortal does. We should surpass our mortal fears and find the truth within. We hold all the answers, but people just look too much for the outside when the answer lies the other way around... deep within. Having this power, is having the power to distinguish truth from fake, is having absolute trust in our own powers and abilities, as well as acknowledging our own weaknesses and limits.

Lesson to take is, weak are those that seek for proof over everything, instead of finding that truth within their own souls and hearts. That way, they will never find any real truth, but only closed doors, being the natural obstacles lifted by the Universe against those that can't give any step with closed eyes, but yet being able to still see...
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Ankhhape on 18.09.09 14:14

Victor: "I disagree with Ankhhape's view that we can't accept anything as truth until we have proof."
That's not what I said it was "I accept nothing as truth until I know it as such."

I am not speaking for any other individual other than myself and my needs. I have already stated that I feel and knows things that are ineffable, though it doesn't mean I accept them. (This probably only makes sense to me of course)

For instance, when I was young I was in martial arts for 8 years, during demonstrations we would break boards, smash bricks and even cinder blocks broken on the stomach from a sledge hammer while lying on a bed of nails.

Now, I could never accept these things were possible, it made no sense to me, still doesn't, yet myself as well as others could perform these acts . . . and without 'faith' you could do it . . . you would fail.
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Ankhhape on 18.09.09 14:52

I meant to say that 'without faith you COULD NOT do it . . . you would fail.


A certain number of rationalists
criticize religious faith, or what they perceive to be religious faith.
They argue it is irrational, and see faith as ignorance of reality: a
strong belief in something with no evidence and sometimes a strong
belief in something even with evidence against it. Bertrand Russell
noted, "Where there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith'. We do not
speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We
only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence."

Richard Dawkins
contends that faith is merely belief without evidence; a process of
active non-thinking. A practice which only degrades our understanding
of the natural world by allowing anyone to make a claim about reality
that is based solely off of their personal thoughts, and possibly
distorted perceptions, that does not require testing against nature,
has no ability to make reliable and consistent predictions, and is not
subject to peer review.

I am not necessarily agreeing with either statement but in defense of my earlier statement I thought these stances were relevant.

Faith is good . . . knowing is better!
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Phoenix on 18.09.09 21:49

Agrhab, Ankhhape and Victor all post some valid, mature points of view. Perhaps one reality exists in a mixture of the arguments. To simply state my opinion, I have no personal, experiential evidence to believe the AK or even Aset, Herself exist. My faith is that they do.
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Aghrab on 18.09.09 23:45

Victor said it well, especially on the part about ritual and magick. Just as someone wise once said "The most powerful magick is that invisible to the gaze.".

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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Hellen on 19.09.09 9:09

Victor's example it is extremely eloquent , and a good opportunity for every follower and disciple to take a moment alone and meditate .

When the true link and initiation exists , it is not affected by doubt .
You see it , there is no need to search for proofs .

Not a matter of belief or faith , it just is , it comes as a fact , a truth , with all the real beauty and blessing since everything around speaks of it.







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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by AnaInDark on 19.09.09 10:57

Great post from Victor.
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Re: Belief V's Faith

Post by Dreamer on 28.09.09 6:44

I am not sure where I stand. I don't need any proof to believe in the Aset Ka, but yet I am a believer and know they are out there.

And nice post, Victor.
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