Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

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Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Pyrene on 11.04.10 11:11

Hi,

While reading the AB I've noticed that the entity of Horus the Elder (Heru-Ur, Hor-Wer, Haroeris, etc) has been practically ignored. In Egyptian Mythology there were five sons of Geb and Nut, which were Isis/Aset, Osiris/Wesir, Haroeris/HorWer, Nephthys/Nebt-het, and Set/Sut. In the Asetian Tradition, strangely, there are only four sons of Geb and Nut, and one Horus, which is Horus the Son of Isis (Heru-sa-Aset, Harsiesis, etc), one of the three Primordials, created from the essence of Aset. Nothing is told about the Elder Horus, one of the five gods that ruled the 5 Epagomenal Days at the end of the egyptian year.

So my question is: what is the role of Horus the Elder in Asetian Tradition, if any?
Thanks for your attention...

Pyr.
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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Pyrene on 11.04.10 11:13

I don't know if this subject was already discussed elsewhere, since I didn't search the other topics before posting this one. Sorry!
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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Jonathan on 11.04.10 17:11

I may be wrong about this, but I believe that Horus the Elder was a transformation of the primordial Horus, that given his increasing importance as the representation of divine power on Earth, as the ruling Pharaoh of Egypt, was later connected to the sons of Geb and Nut, when in fact his origins are connected to Aset. I believe his role changes were simply part of many of the Ancient Egyptian syncretisms and a result, in many times, of political and religious ideologies, while his true essence and origins are, as represented in the Asetian Tree of Life, one of the 3 direct offsprings from Aset. Kemetic theology and myth can be very confusing, and many times apparently irrational, but we should remember that what we see now from their religion is the result of many many centuries of changes, wars and political shifts. Mankind had a definitive role in all of this, changing the reality and truths of the ancient religious mysteries and defacing the words and beliefs of the Elders. Many things found in modern Egyptology are just smoke and mirrors, hiding the deep secrets of the old tradition, something that we can see preserved in Asetianism.
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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Pyrene on 12.04.10 16:11

Thank you for the reply, Jonathan. I wonder, however, why you call the Asetian representation of Horus son of Isis, one of three Elders, etc his "true essence and origins". Can you give any kind of documentation, archaeological discoveries, etc, supporting that view?

I understand that Egyptian Mythology is very complex and changed many times over the centuries, depending on the political and religious powers dominating at any time. However, there are records attesting that the earliest form of Horus, later becoming the national god of Kemet, was Heru-Ur or Hor-Wer, which is precisely Horus the Elder. Couldn't it have been the other way around, Heru-sa-Aset (Horus son of Isis) being a later modification of the primordial Horus son of Geb and Nut?

Note that I'm not saying the Asetian version of the Egyptian Mythology is wrong... but from what I can say, I think it would be misleading to accept the Asetian Tradition as "true" while the historical and archaeological evidences are "wrong", even being somewhat confusing... which they are, beyond any doubt. See what I mean?

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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Jonathan on 12.04.10 19:32

I understand what you mean, but please bear in mind that I am no Egyptologist and my knowledge on this is limited. Maktub would be the ideal person to answer these questions, given his scholar background in Egyptology and his work developed in Egypt and the Middle East for many years.
All I can say is that in the Asetian tradition, Horus is seen as the first son of Aset, and not as her brother as in the Horus the Elder myth. As far as the many different Kemetic versions of the mythology, I can't say which one is the most correct and what teachings are the oldest. That is very hard to trace, even from archaeological evidence. But then again, I would leave such explanations for the experts. I tend to rely mostly on the spiritual and metaphysical aspects of the Asetian tradition rather than verifying the different aspects of their myth and dogma. It is interesting but very confusing. However, also keep in mind that Egyptology itself is full of misconceptions and misinterpretations. Have the dating of the Pyramids of Giza and the Great Sphynx as an example. Recent scientific studies have pointed to much older dates, pretty much aligned with what the Aset Ka has been saying for years, rather than all that has been proclaimed by Egyptology as definitive truth. And those were actual scientific tests, done by Geologists, who can surely understand dating much better than Egyptologists. Egyptology tends to assume dates by comparing, interpreting texts and creating theories. It is far from how true science operates, and in many situations, is the result of mere speculation from its scholars. It's an opinion. Even if an educated one, it is still just an opinion...
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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Pyrene on 14.04.10 13:51

Jonathan wrote:I understand what you mean, but please bear in mind that I am no Egyptologist and my knowledge on this is limited. Maktub would be the ideal person to answer these questions, given his scholar background in Egyptology and his work developed in Egypt and the Middle East for many years.

Interesting! I will wait for a reply from him, then, in case he wishes to contribute with something.

Jonathan wrote:Have the dating of the Pyramids of Giza and the Great Sphynx as an example. Recent scientific studies have pointed to much older dates, pretty much aligned with what the Aset Ka has been saying for years, rather than all that has been proclaimed by Egyptology as definitive truth.

So what? Is the Asetian Tradition the only one saying that Kemet is much older than its "official history"? In my opinion, that is not a valid reason for accepting the Asetian Tradition as an absolute, historical, truth.

Anyway, thanks for the reply.

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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Jonathan on 14.04.10 16:56

No, the only thing I meant is that Egyptology is unreliable and the "historical truths" they profess aren't that much "historical" in many ways...
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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Pyrene on 14.04.10 17:12

Jonathan wrote:No, the only thing I meant is that Egyptology is unreliable and the "historical truths" they profess aren't that much "historical" in many ways...

I agree that Egyptology is indeed unreliable in some points, but not entirely. And I doubt it would be wise to deny everything told or discovered by the egyptologists, just because some points raised by them are unreliable or, at least, lack some evidences.

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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Jonathan on 14.04.10 20:37

I don't deny or doubt everything in Egyptology, just several things. Most importantly the ones connected with religion, metaphysics and spirituality. A simple historian just can't understand those things. It takes a background in the occult to understand the Ancient Egyptian mind, that depended so much on magick and metaphysics. I personally don't believe most Egyptologists can think like the Egyptians or understand the mind of people that lived entirely dedicated to their own complex spirituality, when they don't have a spiritual mind themselves. It would be like properly understanding Einstein without knowing a thing about Physics or to study and explain the truths behind a great Mathematician without having any background with numbers.

This is just my view, and I respect those who think differently on this.
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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Pyrene on 24.04.10 11:02

O.K., Jonathan.

I didn't begin this topic in order to talk about how much of Egyptology is correct and how much of it is wrong or lacks evidences, otherwise this topic's title wouldn't be "Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur". My purpose was solely to understand why Heru-Ur is ignored (?) in the Asetian Tradition, *or* if he has any role or importance in the same tradition.

So I respect your point of view, but now let's get back to the subject.

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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Jonathan on 24.04.10 11:47

I already gave my opinion about that subject right above on my first post. I may be wrong or correct in my assumptions, but either way that is my current opinion on the subject. Besides, I see nothing wrong in a thread diverging around several other subjects. That happens with many posts, as people come with different questions and ideas, many times we end up discussing entirely different subjects from the one that started the thread in the first place. I find that quite healthy and enlightening, since it's a natural development in many discussions, and nothing that we should consciously avoid. That's the purpose of a forum in the first place.
Anyways, if anyone wishes to add something to the previous subject, they are certainly invited to share their views and knowledge over the issue of Horus The Elder.
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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Pyrene on 02.05.10 13:30

Jonathan wrote:That happens with many posts, as people come with different questions and ideas, many times we end up discussing entirely different subjects from the one that started the thread in the first place. I find that quite healthy and enlightening, since it's a natural development in many discussions, and nothing that we should consciously avoid. That's the purpose of a forum in the first place.

Yes, that's quite healthy and enlightening, but the problem is that the main subject of this topic wasn't even discussed yet. The only thing we talked about until now was Egyptology and its qualities and failures. That wasn't, as I said before, the reason why I started this topic... even though I believe that both Egyptology and other traditions can certainly help in uncovering this "mystery", as long as they can be verified to be true. After all, there are so many theories, suppositions and fantasies about the glorious Kemetic civilization that any carelessness in verifying the facts can be disastrous.

Jonathan wrote:Anyways, if anyone wishes to add something to the previous subject, they are certainly invited to share their views and knowledge over the issue of Horus The Elder.

Thanks. That is what I meant.

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Re: Heru-sa-Aset & Heru-Ur

Post by Divine 277 on 07.11.10 10:38

Pyrene wrote:Hi,

While reading the AB I've noticed that the entity of Horus the Elder (Heru-Ur, Hor-Wer, Haroeris, etc) has been practically ignored. In Egyptian Mythology there were five sons of Geb and Nut, which were Isis/Aset, Osiris/Wesir, Haroeris/HorWer, Nephthys/Nebt-het, and Set/Sut. In the Asetian Tradition, strangely, there are only four sons of Geb and Nut, and one Horus, which is Horus the Son of Isis (Heru-sa-Aset, Harsiesis, etc), one of the three Primordials, created from the essence of Aset. Nothing is told about the Elder Horus, one of the five gods that ruled the 5 Epagomenal Days at the end of the egyptian year.

So my question is: what is the role of Horus the Elder in Asetian Tradition, if any?
Thanks for your attention...

Pyr.

Sorry about the mess.... but I was kinda in a hurry and rely tryed to send it directly @ Pyr but that didnt work, so i will post it as an reply on the topic at hand Smile

well, I have been wondering about this topic as well... When it comes to Horus, he has changed a lot trough centuries...

In the book of doors, there are 8 families , in each family there is 8 gods/goddesses ....
Eks :

1 house : Tepi- aui -un = the family of the 8 primordial :
1: Nu = nr 1 , also night (beginning and end) energy or Neter
2 : Nut = night (powerful protection) female.
3: He Hu = eternity male
4: He hut = eternity female
5: Ke Kiu =obscurity male
6:Ke ki ut =obscurity female
7: Ke rh =secret male
8: ker het = secret female

2 house :PET the family of heaven
1: Kem-t= Black or chaos neter
2: shen ur = circuit of heaven , cosmos neter
3:Ra= creative power , male
4: Kheper ra = To make, take form , become or keper : four , male ,Sun rise .
5:Sepdet = The star sept or sirius , black Auset .... female
6:Neith/Anit= from the rot netet, to wave , female
7:Sesheta : to write , also conected whit Sefkhet , the nr 7 female
8:Maat= that which is straight .... female ( truth and justice )

And tho the ages they have been put together like Amon Ra ( moon sun ) for example ...

In the book of doors its stated that Amon was in the family of the moon , when Ra was in the family
of the sun and the family of the heaven ....

There are gods and goddesses who belongs to more then one family ... Auset is in the family of heaven and the family of the sun ....

In all there are 64 Neters this book.... some are considered to be the same ones and some dont...

Its also a chapter on the 4 sons of Heru....

Well I dont know If this was of interest to you, but I Feelt like writing a bit about it to you since you wondered if heru was the son of Aset or the other way around , If I can remember correctly :

Heru : That which is above .... and above Heru there is often a eye of Heru, in pics .

The primordial Heru : face of heaven : solar god , counter part to Seth , the sun was often described at that point as the eye of Horus and the eye of Horus was often described as Sek met

But when Heru was later born into the material world, he was the son of Aset .

Well, I think this can be a bit frustrating to find the right way around and navigate throe ... But I think it would be very obvious that the egyptian religion was eternal , so I guess they thought that everything happened over and over again.

Like what came first , the hen or the egg ...

Sincerely Divine 277
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