Discusssion I have never seen before

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Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Maxx on 05.10.08 9:16

I would like to bring up a discussion I have never seen before in any other group.

That being the difference between focused will without ritual and focused will with ritual. The most important focus being the end result.

In all methods of magic I find rituals which include tools, areas to be used, robes, candles, etc. to help change the attitude of the individual and put them into a moment that is separated from their surroundings and made special. Most of you know what I am relating. It is a connection with the super ego or subconsciousness that one is looking for. Even becoming another or placing yourself into a Gods personage or calling down a God into your diminsion.

I would like to ask what you feel is the difference, if any, with just sitting in a chair and closing the eyes and separating ones self from the present surroundings and going to that special altar or place in the forrest or desert, and performing the ritual in the minds eye. Focusing the will is the prime operation to obtain the desired results.
Calling the God or Gods seems to be no different.

The different areas of space like the physical, inner, astral, and beyond, can certainly be reached by just sitting or lying in bed with focusing the mind and will and even with self hypnosis can put ones self into a more focused situation.

The will seems to be the subject that is most focused. Very strong. Developing the will over a period of time outside of ritual to see most changes in ones personage is always given as help or direction to develop the powers of magic.

I would like to hear your different ideas or comments in regard to the two situations, with ritual and without ritual.

Regards,

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Aghrab on 05.10.08 10:07

Maxx wrote:I would like to ask what you feel is the difference, if any, with just sitting in a chair and closing the eyes and separating ones self from the present surroundings and going to that special altar or place in the forrest or desert, and performing the ritual in the minds eye.

I do understand what you mean by this, and personally I have asked the same many times as I came across the subject of using certain places, certain objects and such to perform magick or rituals. I believe there is not much difference what the "place" you choose to do whatever ritual you have chosen to perform, because what magick is, is not found in objects, or in what you see with your eyes. Magick is felt, not seen or heard. What takes to perform a ritual, is Will, and to my understanding, it does not need much else but Will, unless, of course, if it certainly does need the individual performing it on or by an altar or in a certain place, or if certain objects are needed.

Also some choose to do it in a certain location, as you said, maybe due to the fact that visualization becomes much easier within some atmospheres. This really depends highly on the ritual or work one wants to accomplish. I am only speaking generally.

Overall I believe to perform a ritual, all that is needed is Will and focus. Not really objects, robes, ritual music and such, although as I said, unless certain things are indeed needed, and unless the individual feels more comfortable that way.

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Ankhhape on 05.10.08 10:17

If I'm not mistaken (like that never happens LOL) Certain Hermetics works like this. The psychodrama is dropped in favor of projecting the self into other realms.Franz Bardon's wonderful introductory book on Hermetics outlines the processes involved in stepping your self / subtle body outside of your physical body and projecting it to where you desire with the strength of Will.
I believe the Golden Dawn's Hermeticism on the contrary uses psychodrama almost exclusively to perform this process and relies heavily upon ritual in order to execute the procedures.

I prefer Bardon's approach for its discipline of mind over matter
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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Maxx on 05.10.08 10:25

Thank you, Aghrab. I can always count on you for a great answer or comment to help me reflect on an issue.

One thing I would like to add is the element of positive statements. I have found a gigantic difference in just repeating a statement I want to happen over and over, and the action that really gets results is this: First put myself in a spot where I see everything around me is all my creation. THEN....saying the statement in repition and as I say it I see in my minds eye that I am creating the item I wish to create as I say it. I get much better results with this than in the past. And this does is not going into a riutal in any way. This shows me that focused will is the most important element for me instead of a ritual to accomplish that item.


Regards,

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Maxx on 05.10.08 10:31

A'nen Sedjet,

I do recall many instances of this from the books I have on Bardon. I will be where I can get to all my books by the end of this month as I have gotten a 5 bedroom and will be able to get everything out of storage. Which book are you referring to?

Also, I recall I acquired a circular menu which gives over 1000 Gods/Spirits for each degree in a circle and then go into another dimision level over that one with other Spirits/Gods names of those Bardon had contacted. I will find it when I finish moving and talk to you about it.

It appears our reading and study is taking us in the same direction on many things.

Regards,

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Victor on 05.10.08 11:07

I believe that conscious directed Will can, in most cases, accomplish the same as a well executed ritual. Will and Energy are at the center of any magickal practice. What then varies is simply the technique and methods of approaching magick itself. I also believe both things are valid, if the drama of a ritual can help induce an altered state that will empower the working itself, then why not. But Will is what allows magick to be manifested, wether in a ritual or sitting on a chair.

There are however exceptions to what I just said. That is for example when using specially crafted sigils that manifest a power not so easily achieved by simply using the mind, or in cases of a field of metaphysics not much exploited in the mainstream or popular occultism, as what is described in the Asetian Bible as active magick. In this elitist field of magick, the workings have nothing (or nearly nothing) ritualistic about it, and they are applied through direct manipulation of the elements, the environment and, of course, energy. It is in this practice that comes in place the direct usage of wands and talismans, as again is approached in the Asetian Bible. In this field of magick, the work not being ritualistic, is approached in a much more direct metaphysical way, being able to be seen and studied as a true science. This is a particular case of practical occultism and magick where I believe the workings surpass just the Will, desire, ritual or visualization, but rely on knowledge, techniques and an occult science that is metaphysics.
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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Ankhhape on 05.10.08 11:17

Maxx:
The book I am referring to is his 'Initiation into Hermetics: a course of instruction of Magic Theory & Practice'
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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Maxx on 05.10.08 11:19

Thank you, Victor. A very informative message. But could you give me an example of what you are talking about in regard to the more advanced use of Magic as mentioned in the Asetian Bible. As I was reading your answer, I could see weather being manipulated like that, but that is one of the easiest things in magic to accomplish. I have to do that all the time in my work. So I know you were not referring to weather. Please zero in a little more with an example.

Thanks,

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Maxx on 05.10.08 11:21

Thank you, A'nen Sedjet. That was the book I remembered but I could not think of the title. It has been a while since I have gone through those books.

Regards,

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Syrianeh on 06.10.08 4:54

If you think if it, ritual is present in our every day life 24 hours a day. For example, setting the table for a meal is a highly ritualistic act: fork on the left, knife on the right, glass on the right closer to the center, napkin on the right... I understand there is a component of social compliance involved here, but all in all it comes to a highly elaborate (the more elaborate the more "official" or "socially elevated" the ocassion) ensemble just to facilitate a function as basic as eating.

Now, imagine you ate the contents of a can of tuna on a fancy-set table - with a linen napkin on your lap, silver cutllery correctly placed and a special white wine served on Bohemian Crystal. The tuna would certainly taste like gourmet. It's ritualized tuna Cool

If you ate the same thing standing up, and directly out of the can with your hand, it would probably taste like nasty grub (and it would also make you feel very embarrassed to be seen).

This extreme example just goes to show that ritual is extremely powerful as an isolation device when you need to project your Will. Your Will seems to be supported and strenghtened by the ritual, and thus it enforces your focus and makes it more potent.

That's how I see it.
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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Maxx on 06.10.08 6:19

Then you are saying your own personal preference is using the ritual.

Thanks,

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Syrianeh on 06.10.08 6:34

Yes, I hope you didn't think the example was too simple. I fear I am too enthusiastic to speak out in this forum, some times...
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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Hellen on 07.10.08 0:45

Hello ,


In my oppinion main thing is the change , and second the taste and how you feel when doing it .
One can find their Will is enhanced and gets more focus by ritual while others by direct Will . There are preferences
but finally i think is a matter of results and also of conjunctures .

Regards

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Maxx on 07.10.08 7:07

Good. Few words and right to the point. Results are the important thing.

thanks,

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Ankhhape on 07.10.08 8:06

Let's take the food analogy a step further (or back depending on how you see it): what if you were to eat what you, personally harvest? What if you hunted your own game and fed and clothed your family with it? What I'm getting at here is I think sitting in a fancy restaurant and being served removes one from the immediacy of food as a ritual and thus removes one further from interaction with the Divine. Maybe I'm nutz!
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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Hellen on 07.10.08 8:39

A'nen Sedjet wrote:Let's take the food analogy a step further (or back depending on how you see it): what if you were to eat what you, personally harvest? What if you hunted your own game and fed and clothed your family with it? What I'm getting at here is I think sitting in a fancy restaurant and being served removes one from the immediacy of food as a ritual and thus removes one further from interaction with the Divine. Maybe I'm nutz!

lol! A'nen , that's a good example of those who go to psychics or magicians to solve their personal problems ( eating in a restaurant is more passive than to arrange your own meal ).
In this case you are all in the hands of others and take risk of getting the soup on your trousers because of a bad waiter , or get the wrong meal if you fail to express what you really need and many other risks too Laughing
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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Syrianeh on 07.10.08 10:13

In Spain we have a saying that is usually applied to situations where it's just better to do things yourself:

"I cook it, I eat it"

Twisted Evil

This said, I believe both ritualizing and not ritualizing for exterting your Will. Will is what's important here and everything else is a vehicle for it.
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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Victor on 07.10.08 11:12

Maxx wrote:Thank you, Victor. A very informative message. But could you give me an example of what you are talking about in regard to the more advanced use of Magic as mentioned in the Asetian Bible. As I was reading your answer, I could see weather being manipulated like that, but that is one of the easiest things in magic to accomplish. I have to do that all the time in my work. So I know you were not referring to weather. Please zero in a little more with an example.
I don't fully agree with you that a direct manipulation of weather is that simple as one of the easiest things in magic to accomplish. It requieres a lot of energy and a lot of projection. I personally can have better results far more easily in a direct application of active magick, like for example making someone collapse and fait with a single energy strike with a wand. And that I believe can serve your question on examples as well, anything that you do with a wand in a non ritualistic manner, I believe it can be considered active magick. Things like instantly changing someone's thoughts, fully shutting down a main Shen center, making someone pass out, or to shield someone actively. All those are examples of active magick I believe. Some can be accomplished by other means and techniques, others cannot. The wand, wether mineral or wood, is an amplifier that allows for specific energy projections where the Will alone cannot go through our regular energy centers. So it needs to be amplified for a stronger signal and to apply the correct vibration. As I said in my other post, it is actually a science... an occult one, but nevertheless a science.
Also in the case of wanding, it is not like simply waving a wand and applying our Will to it. It is much more than that. It needs the techniques, the initiations, the sigils... it is a process. However, it is a scientific process of metaphysics, not a ritual one, since those things are there for a reason and not to create the proper atmosphere as in a ritual.
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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Maxx on 07.10.08 18:36

Good. That makes your words a little more easily understood. Thanks for the clarity. However, we do disagree about the weather. That
is what beginning magicians begin to practice in order to see changes right before their eyes. Manipulation of the clouds and the wind and the rain, etc. is very enjoyable for me. Maybe that is why and how I see magic easier without ritual than with it. Lying on your back manipulting clouds and calling in the rainclouds is how I began to practice. Something like the book ILLUSIONS by the guy who wrote the Seagull book.

Regards,

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by Jamien on 02.06.12 20:15

Syrianeh wrote:If you think if it, ritual is present in our every day life 24 hours a day. For example, setting the table for a meal is a highly ritualistic act: fork on the left, knife on the right, glass on the right closer to the center, napkin on the right... I understand there is a component of social compliance involved here, but all in all it comes to a highly elaborate (the more elaborate the more "official" or "socially elevated" the ocassion) ensemble just to facilitate a function as basic as eating.

Now, imagine you ate the contents of a can of tuna on a fancy-set table - with a linen napkin on your lap, silver cutllery correctly placed and a special white wine served on Bohemian Crystal. The tuna would certainly taste like gourmet. It's ritualized tuna Cool

If you ate the same thing standing up, and directly out of the can with your hand, it would probably taste like nasty grub (and it would also make you feel very embarrassed to be seen).

This extreme example just goes to show that ritual is extremely powerful as an isolation device when you need to project your Will. Your Will seems to be supported and strenghtened by the ritual, and thus it enforces your focus and makes it more potent.

That's how I see it.

Although I favor the direct mental/psychic mode that Maxx shared, your post above has shaken my tree so to speak in a most wonderful way...

I bow b4 you with thanks.

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Re: Discusssion I have never seen before

Post by l.h.e.e on 03.12.16 11:53

I agree with victor as most of the active magick doesn't involve only yourself and your will, for example a plant in a ritual could not only be used for its symbolic importance but also for its metaphysical properties.
And is this the reason that for me being able to separate the ritual ornament and its external useful resources when reading grimoires.

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