Killing the Thoth deck

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Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Kalb on 12.07.12 17:22

Em Hotep,

I recently read a very interesting document on Tarot, here are the text and link.

LINK: http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/books-for-the-thoth-deck/

http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/books-for-the-thoth-deck/ wrote:
An issue came up on one of the forums about which is the best book from which to learn about the Crowley-Harris Thoth deck. The answer for almost everyone is, without question, Aleister Crowley’s Book of Thoth. This, despite the fact that, for most beginners in esoteric studies, it seems impenetrable. Books by Duquette and Banzhaf are proposed as intermediaries and I agree they are excellent choices, but a problem occurs when Angeles Arrien’s name comes up. Her Tarot Handbook: practical applications of ancient visual symbols takes a completely different approach to the deck, which is often characterized as the “make up anything you want” variety—though it isn’t that at all. I should mention I took several classes with Angie on the Thoth deck starting in 1977, and so I’m not at all objective in my views.

Angie’s approach is based on Jung’s theory of the collective unconscious and the meaningful repetition of archetypal images and themes across world-wide human cultures. The statement by Arrien that probably infuriates people the most is: “I read Crowley’s book that went with this deck and decided that its esotericism in meaning hindered, rather than enhanced, the use of the visual portraitures that Lady Frieda Harris had executed.” Of key importance was that Arrien experienced a powerful response to the deck that did not arise from an esoteric OTO or Golden Dawn background. It was not specifically a rejection of Crowley, though it is easy to take it as such.

Instead, Arrien recognized most of the symbols from her study of anthropology and mythology. As a result she felt that “a humanistic and universal explanation of these symbols was needed so that the value of Tarot could be used in modern times as a reflective mirror of internal guidance which could be externally applied.” She believed that the Thoth deck symbols could be read in an other-than-esoteric way—specifically, as cross-cultural psychological symbols (archetypes from the collective unconscious). Her book offers this alternate perspective, based on the work of Carl Jung, Marie Louise von Franz, Joseph Campbell, Ralph Metzner, Mircea Eliade and Robert Bly.

In essence, Arrien asked: What do these symbols tell us if we strip away the esotericism and look at them purely as symbols and archetypes from the collective unconscious reflecting myths and images that have appeared across many cultures?

I see this simply as an alternate reading of the deck—not as a demand that we discount Crowley—but, rather, asking what can be seen if we do ignore Crowley? Is there anything else to this deck? Do real ‘true’ symbols transcend fixed definitions? Can they transcend any and all dogma?

We might also ask: If Crowley’s book were lost (along with all other esoteric texts), would future generations be able to reconstitute and find anything meaningful in these 78 images? Would this deck still offer something capable of informing our thoughts and actions?

It turns out that this is a valid question, for at least one person involved in the online discussion (and perhaps many others) felt that the Thoth deck is based on a specific language of symbols, defined by Crowley, such that, without his text the symbolism and the deck become meaningless. To remove Crowley, then, is to kill the Thoth deck—to make it worthless. In fact, as explained to me, symbols contain no meaning outside of the stated definitions of an individual. Strip symbols of definition and they either convey no information or they mean anything one likes.

This is absolutely contrary to the understanding of symbols held by such people as Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, the French magician, Eliphas Lévi, and countless others who have written extensively on symbolism and who believe that the meaning of the symbol is inherent in its nature. “Symbols can thus be understood as metaphors for archetypal needs and intentions or expressions of basic archetypal patterns . . . which are ultimately inherent in the human mind-brain” (Anthony Stevens, Ariadne’s Clue: A Guide to the Symbols of Humankind).

Furthermore, symbolism is a sacred, living language that reflects divinity through like vibrations. From this principle arose the occult ‘doctrine of correspondences,’ which says that something that is red, for instance, shares some kind of energy and meaning with other things that are red. Thorns that pierce are the protective weapons and barriers to the alluring rose whose scent also draws the bees. Even an esoteric interpretation takes such elements into account.

Many spiritual teachers do not fear the subjective, for they see each person as partaking of the Divine. The esotericist Manly Palmer Hall wrote in The Secret Teaching of All Ages: “Like all other forms of symbolism, the Tarot unfailingly reflects the viewpoint of the interpreter himself. This does not detract from its value, however, for symbolism is one of the most useful instruments of instruction in the spiritual arts, because it continually draws from the subjective resources of the seeker the substance of his own erudition.”

Certainly Crowley’s erudition is great, and we benefit from the knowledge that he put into the Thoth book and deck (his book is magnificient!). But, if we stop there, we have not done our own work. There may be other interpreters of the Thoth deck who can also point us down what has been called “the royal road” of Tarot. Still, eventually we must make the path our own—there’s no getting around that.

The Egyptologist, R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz in Symbol and the Symbolic tells us that symbols are different than an abstract alphabet in that we can reconstitute their meanings: “Any manner of writing formed by means of a conventional alphabetical, arbitrary system can, over time, be lost and become incomprehensible. On the other hand, the use of images as signs for the expression of thought [hieroglyphics] leaves the meaning of this writing, five or six thousand years old, as clear and accessible as it was the day it was carved in the stone.” In The Temple in Man, Schwaller de Lubicz talks about the living quality of the symbol that can not survive too rigid of a definition: “To explain a symbol is to kill it; it is to take it only for its appearance; it is to avoid listening to it. By definition, the symbol is magic, it evokes the form bound in the spell of matter. To evoke is not to imagine. It is to live, live the form.” (See Schwaller’s Egyptianized Tarot Trumps here.)

Most of all I appeal to Oswald Wirth who created the first truly esoteric Tarot deck (1889; revised in 1926) that is a significant influence behind all that have followed. Wirth, in Le Symbolisme Hermétique (translated by P. D. Ouspensky), wrote that symbols are meant to awaken us to our own freedom:

“Each thinker has the right to discover in the symbol a new meaning corresponding to the logic of his own conceptions. As a matter of fact, symbols are precisely intended to awaken ideas sleeping in our consciousness. They arouse a thought by means of suggestion and thus cause the truth which lies hidden in the depths of our spirit to reveal itself. . . . They especially elude minds which . . . base their reasoning only on inert scientific and dogmatic formulae. The practical utility of these formulae cannot be contested, but from the philosophical point of view they represent only frozen thought, artifically limited, made immovable to such an extent, that it seems dead in comparison with the living thought, indefinite, complex and mobile, which is reflected in symbols. . . . By their very nature the symbols must remain elastic, vague and ambiguous, like the sayings of an oracle. Their role is to unveil mysteries, leaving the mind all its freedom.”

“. . . Leaving the mind all its freedom.” It saddens me that the fears and anger provoked by Angeles Arrien’s book indicate a deep mistrust that the Thoth deck can survive the common touch of the “masses,” or that it has any worth whatsoever outside of Crowley’s text. It is felt that the mistakes and misconceptions in Arrien’s book (of which there admittedly are many) could create a devastating sense of betrayal in those who eventually find out that Crowley intended something different. This supposedly-fearful juxtaposition, however, led me to a much deeper appreciation of Crowley, while Angie encouraged independence and freedom in how I work with the deck and its symbols (not a good thing to those who see Crowley as the absolute and only fundament).

Although Crowley professed love for “the scarlet woman,” yet he feared the prostituting of his work, insisting that the deck and book always be sold together (it isn’t) and describing the deck’s potential use in fortune-telling as being a base and dishonest purpose (here -see text at the end). In fact, it seems that Crowley feared even the thought that anyone might claim independent insight into his deck for, despite her working diligently for five years with him to produce the deck, Crowley made clear that his student and artist, Frieda Harris, at no time contributed “a single idea of any kind to any card, and she is in fact almost as ignorant of the Tarot and its true meaning and use as when she began.” What hope is there, then, for the rest of us?

But, hope does exists, for the ever-contradictory Aleister Crowley (using the pseudonym “Soror I.W.E.“) wrote in the introductory biographical note to the Book of Thoth, that “the accompanying booklet [this book] was dashed off by Aleister Crowley, without help from parents. Its perusal may be omitted with advantage.“ And Frieda Harris’ innovative use of Steinerian ‘Synthetic Projective Geometry,’ described here, certainly deepens the effect of its imagery on the psyche.

I can only hope that, if you care about the Thoth deck, that each of you are brave enough to make up your own minds and feel free to “do as you will.” I leave you with this thought from old Aleister:

Know Naught!
All ways are lawful to innocence.
Pure folly is the key to initiation.

What is your opinion?
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Jonathan on 12.07.12 18:32

Interesting ideas. Thanks for sharing this.

Stalker wrote:
http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/books-for-the-thoth-deck/ wrote:
Of key importance was that Arrien experienced a powerful response to the deck that did not arise from an esoteric OTO or Golden Dawn background.
I find this bit particularly relevant. You don't need the help of an order to master the tarot or magick. Intuition plays a great role as do the other tools that live inside you. I'm sure there are people out there that have a better understanding of Crowley and the Thoth deck than others who have undergone all levels of initiation at OTO. This is important with a lot of occult fields. I believe that wisdom comes mostly from past lives and that is more valuable than any form of modern teaching. Finding a guide or the path that resonates with us may be very important but there is nothing like finding those answers within. Crowley is great and all but you find better meanings for the Tarot in the astral than in his books. At least that's my perspective. Great read Stalker.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Kalb on 13.07.12 1:41

We know that after Crowley have seen the stelae in Egypt has changed a lot. Crowley began to hear the voice of an Egyptian priest to dictate to him the Book of the Law, who served as a reference to create the Thoth tarot deck.



If we observ the image we see a big connection with Khonsu... That put us close to Asetianism. So, it's correct say that Thoth Tarot was an art inspired in Asetian Culture?
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Jonathan on 13.07.12 6:07

It's impossible to know for sure if the deck was inspired by the Asetian culture. It was certainly inspired by the Ancient Egyptian culture. As most of you I have also heard rumors of Crowley having some background in Asetian magick, which inspired him in the development of Thelema and his magick, especially after his visit to Egypt with Rose Edith Kelly. That changed everything to him and some people believe that in that trip there was some sort of connection with the Aset Ka that isn't exactly clear, one that Crowley later used to add some flourishing and drama typical of his eccentric character. No idea if that's true or just myth.

It's an interesting theory but in my opinion it doesn't really matter if real or myth. You can use the Thoth Tarot with an Asetian focus and see an Asetian connection in its symbolism wether or not that was Crowley or Harris idea. That's what matters.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Kalb on 13.07.12 6:22

I agree with you Jonathan. My question was only to know what you(and others) think about the idea. In fact, you're correct in your vision. You're correct when you believe that wisdom comes from past lives and that is more valuable than any form of modern teaching. I agree with and follow your logic.

Thank you.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by N.Augusta on 14.07.12 8:23

I've heard these rumors about Crowley and the AK, but I think it is a big stretch. I would need facts and proof to discredit them as rumors and to consider them as fact. However, not like Mr. Crowley has ever been one free of rumors-- even after his passing. Wink Then again, not like the Asetians are ever free of rumors either.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Victor on 14.07.12 9:00

At this point I see this as N.Augusta, just as a rumor, even if an interesting one, but I also agree with Jonathan when he says it doesn't really matter.

Crowley was a great occultist and a very intelligent man but his system of Thelema was also incredibly flawed. He taught the breaking of the ego in order to discover True Will but yet his whole life was plagued by decisions governed by his ego and not enlightenment. The reflex of his ego is quite clear in the development of Thelema, going as far as proclaiming himself the prophet of the new age which he called Aeon and placing him at the center of the new religion he "created". That was something against all of his teachings, which himself didn't exactly follow. There was a lot of duality in him through a mix of genius, ego but also manipulation and control. His project with the Abbey of Thelema in Italy was another great mess that eventually frustrated him even further towards people. As I said he was still a great occultist, one of the best in history from the most accessible and public ones, but in my view his Thelema can be a decent introduction to occult theory but it's just another step, not a definitive path by any means. A step to something greater. His ritual methods are potent and very rich in terms of ceremonial magick, but if you really wish to learn about energy manipulation and metaphysics you won't find that in Thelema or Crowley's work.

Also frequently forgotten, the spiritual concepts of Will and True Will are not exclusive to Thelema and are part of countless other occult systems. It wasn't Crowley's creation. It seems like the Golden Dawn and the OTO wanted/want to come off as the authorities on Crowley's wisdom simply because they hold much of the legal copyright to his works. Interpretations to his magick are diverse and many great occultists have diverged from the view of those orders in the past. The OTO, for example, can be a great resource if you're interested in the ceremonial methods of the Western mystery school. They also have a few members that developed great knowledge on the Tarot along the years. Now if you seek to explore advanced energy work, past-life research and Ancient Egyptian magick, you will find most people there not very knowledgeable. All comes down to what you truly seek. Different things call out to different people. There's a vast world out there.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by N.Augusta on 14.07.12 9:05

Just wanted to point out that there are not many who have undergone all levels of initiation in the OTO, there's a lot involved. Wink In fact, most stay between minerval and 3rd degree from my understanding.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by N.Augusta on 14.07.12 11:07

That's the whole key, as Victor said, "Different things call out to different people. There's a vast world out there." Our concern can only be for what calls out to us as individuals and not concern ourselves with what others feel called to. All are free to do as they so will.

With Crowley, one of the things that I like about him was his approach of, 'don't be like me, be yourself. Don't just believe me, learn for yourself.' There's an awesome fella somewhere around whom has a similar approach. Wink

I like Crowley a lot because of his duality. He could be an arse but could also be a gentleman, for example. He was a troubled man, yet a genius, but regardless he took magick and learning seriously, yet always had quite a sense of humor and even some snbbishness to him too. I will always wonder just how much his drug usage effected him, and how different he would of been without them. Using heroine for "asthma" regardless will still mess you up. With that said, he was not perfect and had his own personal struggles, demons, and losses to deal with just as we all do. He was but human and the thing is he was PUBLIC out there to be seen, which does require courage.

With that said, I don't think who he was as a person or his personal life really matters much, what matters is what he left behind which gives us so much to learn. We may have knowledge, but that doesn't mean we always follow/listen to what we ourselves know. Wink However, with that said, I think it is important to learn about him, because by doing so you can then understand his writings all the more, though, it is important not to be judgmental.

I think.....that if we can accept the Asetians for what we understand them to be (in which many will 'find their ways to be inhumane' as a particular passage in the beginning of the AB tells us,) then we can't fault others, such as Crowley, for their ways and mistakes. Not to say that I'm free of being judgmental or free of mistakes, for I am not as I've admitted such several times. I've made my amends with one whom matters to me.... Love always leads you back. Oh how I digress at times-- damn A.D.D.

I'm not saying anyone is being judgmental here-- as we are not, we are just sharing. But for people new to Crowley, it is easy for people to take what they hear and judge him. He lived quite an interesting life. At the end of it all, what really matters is that we can look back on our lives, right before we die, and say we enjoyed it and lived it well, etc.

I just think it is so important to really start working on Self, to do the inner work, and most certainly work on the Ego, prior to trying to become some advanced magickal being, because without such, you will get lost into the abyss. Happens all the time.

Gees, sorry I am way tooo A.D.D right now. I hope this all made some sense. I need more coffee!

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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Jonathan on 14.07.12 18:40

N.Augusta, I'm not entirely sure I agree on the courage part. To some people it doesn't take that much courage to be public. Actually, I think ego was a great motivation to Crowley when being so public and open about his life. He also loved to shock people. He loved the attention. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, but I don't see his public exposure as a sign of courage.
I do agree with the importance of working on Self but I don't think that work should be detached from the magickal pursuit and metaphysical development. To me those things are connected and one potentiates the other. That's something I find very balanced in Asetianism, we have such a long journey of inner discovery that involves solitary work on Self, but we also have a lot of magickal work to do that will aid in that treacherous path.

Victor, I liked your post. Thanks for giving us some insight on this subject. I also agree that different things call out to different people and on how the world is so diverse. That's a great thing! Personally the subjects of energy work, past lives, astral travel, OBE, meditation and Egyptian spirituality are of great interest to me and my inner path.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by N.Augusta on 18.07.12 22:12

Jonathan wrote:N.Augusta, I'm not entirely sure I agree on the courage part. To some people it doesn't take that much courage to be public. Actually, I think ego was a great motivation to Crowley when being so public and open about his life. He also loved to shock people. He loved the attention. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, but I don't see his public exposure as a sign of courage.

Yes, but we are not talking "some people" we are talking Crowley. Smile So, while I agree with you on the one hand, however, was not Crowley a courageous man? I do see Crowley as a courageous man. He pushed the limits, with others, yes, but so much with himself as he was constantly pushing his limits (mentally, physically, spiritually, etc.) and testing new waters as a magickian, which that too takes courage. And, well, of course, also the mountain climbing that he did as well. So, lets meet in the middle? Hehe. But yeah, I can see him being egotistical too, to some degree-- he loved to shock people, he got off on it, I think, but then again, those who suffer addictions, well many drugs make you feel like you are larger than life, though, I don't think or know if heroine does, but he took other drugs too. Hmmmm. But, he was a complex man, and just a little crazy, but then again, there is fine line between genius and being crazy. Smile)))

Jonathan wrote:I do agree with the importance of working on Self but I don't think that work should be detached from the magickal pursuit and metaphysical development. To me those things are connected and one potentiates the other. That's something I find very balanced in Asetianism, we have such a long journey of inner discovery that involves solitary work on Self, but we also have a lot of magickal work to do that will aid in that treacherous path.


I agree with you. But, so many just want to have these cool "powers" and yet not work on Self, its just sad to see and that too contributes to making occultists look like a group of loonies, ya know?! But, I think that there must be at least a certain level of maturity where one is more "responsible," and that one must also be mentally sane/healthy before undergoing serious occult studies and serious practicing of magick as this all comes into play with ones success. I think the greatest service one can do for Self, before seriously practicing magick, is to begin the work on Self, at least on a psychological level for it will effect ones success and if they are truly making a life time commitment to it all and their learning. Hmmm, so many don't (work on self at least on a psychological level) and maybe that explains why you do find so many fruit cake "occultists"?. Hmm, I suppose that all begins with what it is that drew someone to begin with into occult studies. What their purpose and goals are. The term "enlightenment" is becoming like a blanket term that is thrown around without meaning. Yet, then it can be argued that everything and all that we do is magick too. Hmmm, me ponders. I hope this made sense.

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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Jonathan on 19.07.12 6:48

N.Augusta wrote:
Jonathan wrote:N.Augusta, I'm not entirely sure I agree on the courage part. To some people it doesn't take that much courage to be public. Actually, I think ego was a great motivation to Crowley when being so public and open about his life. He also loved to shock people. He loved the attention. I'm not saying he wasn't brilliant, but I don't see his public exposure as a sign of courage.

Yes, but we are not talking "some people" we are talking Crowley. Smile So, while I agree with you on the one hand, however, was not Crowley a courageous man? I do see Crowley as a courageous man. He pushed the limits, with others, yes, but so much with himself as he was constantly pushing his limits (mentally, physically, spiritually, etc.) and testing new waters as a magickian, which that too takes courage.
No no you got me all wrong. I didn't meant to say Crowley was a coward! I do see him as a courageous man. All I meant is that yes he had courage as an occultist, testing new waters as you say, but that was not connected with him being public. That side of him wasn't about courage but about ego. He was courageous all right, but for entirely different things.

N.Augusta wrote:I agree with you. But, so many just want to have these cool "powers" and yet not work on Self, its just sad to see and that too contributes to making occultists look like a group of loonies, ya know?! But, I think that there must be at least a certain level of maturity where one is more "responsible," and that one must also be mentally sane/healthy before undergoing serious occult studies and serious practicing of magick as this all comes into play with ones success. I think the greatest service one can do for Self, before seriously practicing magick, is to begin the work on Self, at least on a psychological level for it will effect ones success and if they are truly making a life time commitment to it all and their learning. Hmmm, so many don't (work on self at least on a psychological level) and maybe that explains why you do find so many fruit cake "occultists"?.
On this we do agree. Studying the occult has nothing to do with developing powers. We do find ourselves with certain powers on our hands as we go along the way but I see that as a consequence of development and not as a goal.
I have seen people going mentally insane after studying Asetianism for some time and you probably have seen that as well, and I'm not saying they lacked commitment. Their passion was there maybe even obsessively but their goals were off. They were not there to grow they were there to become powerful. Asetianism has its own unique way of breaking people like that and throwing them on their knees before they realize. Lets be honest, there is danger in this kind of knowledge that people don't often recognize. The disclaimer on the Asetian Bible is there for a reason but people often dismiss it just because it sounds cool. It's real.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Kalb on 20.07.12 5:31

Jonathan: You have the habit of letting myself be happy to read your post's. I liked what you said. It was very interesting your point of view.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by N.Augusta on 24.07.12 21:41

Jonathan wrote:
No no you got me all wrong. I didn't meant to say Crowley was a coward! I do see him as a courageous man. All I meant is that yes he had courage as an occultist, testing new waters as you say, but that was not connected with him being public. That side of him wasn't about courage but about ego. He was courageous all right, but for entirely different things.
No,no, I didn't take it to mean that you were saying he was a coward at all. I was just saying that he was a courageous fella to begin with, which being out there in the public as he was, being hated, takes courage. I'm not saying that he wasn't egotistical, because I think he was, some what. However, if you look deeper, often times those who have these big egos, lack courage when push comes to shove as they have an unbalanced ego. Its all show, this false sense of grandeur that they project outwardly. They may do some courageous things, but it is only show to satisfy their own false big egos. I think Crowley's courage went beyond his occult practices though. On a psychological level, though, my god he is one hell of an interesting individual.

N.Augusta wrote:I agree with you. But, so many just want to have these cool "powers" and yet not work on Self, its just sad to see and that too contributes to making occultists look like a group of loonies, ya know?! But, I think that there must be at least a certain level of maturity where one is more "responsible," and that one must also be mentally sane/healthy before undergoing serious occult studies and serious practicing of magick as this all comes into play with ones success. I think the greatest service one can do for Self, before seriously practicing magick, is to begin the work on Self, at least on a psychological level for it will effect ones success and if they are truly making a life time commitment to it all and their learning. Hmmm, so many don't (work on self at least on a psychological level) and maybe that explains why you do find so many fruit cake "occultists"?.
Jonathan wrote: On this we do agree. Studying the occult has nothing to do with developing powers. We do find ourselves with certain powers on our hands as we go along the way but I see that as a consequence of development and not as a goal.
I have seen people going mentally insane after studying Asetianism for some time and you probably have seen that as well, and I'm not saying they lacked commitment. Their passion was there maybe even obsessively but their goals were off. They were not there to grow they were there to become powerful. Asetianism has its own unique way of breaking people like that and throwing them on their knees before they realize. Lets be honest, there is danger in this kind of knowledge that people don't often recognize. The disclaimer on the Asetian Bible is there for a reason but people often dismiss it just because it sounds cool. It's real.
This is true! Its like I tell people, the "ego" wasn't mentioned in the AB 50,000 times for no good reason.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Victor on 25.07.12 19:14

Jonathan wrote:Asetianism has its own unique way of breaking people like that and throwing them on their knees before they realize. Lets be honest, there is danger in this kind of knowledge that people don't often recognize. The disclaimer on the Asetian Bible is there for a reason but people often dismiss it just because it sounds cool. It's real.
Now you're talking...
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by witchmark on 26.07.12 7:42

N. Augusta,

Just recently....actually yesterday....before I came to the boards here and read what you had to say about Mr. Crowley, I stated to another on facebook that I was not a huge fan of Crowley. Now after reading what you had to say, I could only sit back and have a think about my own views on this particular gentleman.

I have re-evaluated myself here, I had to. It is his personal life and choices that bothers me about Mr. Crowley and not what he intended to pass on to others concerning the occult. I can actually look back at my own progress and see where I actually bounced off of him and his ideals as far as occultism goes.

Thank you so kindly for the information you have given.

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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by N.Augusta on 26.07.12 21:31

Thank you very much for your kind words, Witchmark, its my pleasure! I am happy to hear that you have re-evaluated-- thank you for sharing.

He's a fascinating man! Smile
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Maxx on 09.12.12 21:17

May I reflect here, after some time, regarding the original post by kalb. Earlier today,in another section, I posted about a video regarding temples in Egypt being used as teaching of symbolism. It was the sections of Temples in Men mentioned in this first post above. It connects with her comments about how symbols relate to the individual. And I will try to post my own connection to the above mentioned Thoth deck...

I have used the Thoth tarot.....I find it relates perfectly to my walk through this world at this time for me......but I have not read the Book of Thoth by Crowley..so I would be one of those individuals they mention above that if Crowley was not here how would one relate to his Thoth deck.....instead, I have developed a relationship with a spirit being that I trust very much that aids me in the readings....and I am finding my results given in each reading have been 100 percent on target....am learning to relate better and better to this process as I see it because.......connecting to the matters of this world I am finding all of my dreams are now given to me and they are all in symbols....and as I reflect on them the next day or the second day at the most....it will come to me...EXACT meaning. Now, I have come to see that with the spirit being that is teaching me at this present time, that being has conveyed thoughts into my mind and it has been my choice to act on them or not......and at this point let me give you the biggest reason for posting this......I now believe from what I have experienced that everyone of any credit at all......is receiving thoughts from the spirit being that is influencing you...giving those thoughts that come into the mind and at that point you are thinking it is your own design....I now say phooey to that...lol....as I am aware of some of the insight those spirits have given to the world.
I mention the dreams because I see this as the same technique as reading the tarot deck...they are presented in symbolism and we need to trust our impressions as we develop a better understanding of how we connect to our dreams and also the tarot impressions.

And I connect in this fashion to the thoth tarot deck....much of what the original post mentioned does not get into the actual method of the real reading. One has to trance down to some degree and connect with the spirit being to make the real connection to that reading...and then the actual thought in symbol or words that enter the mind can be acurate.....Those cards are not doing anything....it is the connection between the reader and the spirit that is receiving.....and actually...the cards are only for the person requesting the reading.....because when the connection between the reader and the spirit occurrs, one can do a reading of the tarot without the cards....it can be done completely by connecting to the spirit realm. It is evident that Crowley was aware of all this....as what he designed with this deck was coming from the spirit world. One does not take the book that comes along with the cards and memorize it to become a reader of any merit......this whole process comes from the other world connection....and when that connects, one does not even need the deck after that.......this relates to Jonathan's post about the major part or connection is done in the astral.....

So, I have rambeled into some other area not displayed in the majority of the posts above talking about the Thoth deck, but I felt like it was an area that may present another view ..... as stated previously...how different we each are......

Maxx
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Kalb on 15.12.12 4:28

Interesting... Maxx. Remember that the world of dreams can be very misleading, dreams can give you product of your ego. Aleister Crowley never described the true symbol of the cards, he simply gave several tips to realize its symbolism, as we see in the 22 major arcana. The entire Tarot deck, is symbolized drawn across the Tree of Life, giving a complexity in the 4/5 Planes of existence.

In shamanism, they believe in the Wheel of Time, believe that a true sorcerer understands and dominates the wheel. Crowley said the same.

Book of Thoth - Aleister Crowley wrote:
The Great Wheel of Samsara.
The Whell of the Law (Dhamma.)
The Wheel of the Taro.
The Whell of the Heavens.
The Wheel of Life.
All these Wheels be one; yet of all these the Wheel of the TARO alone avails thee consciously.)

I can give you the example of Universal Manifestations, Ma'at is a representation of the universal principle of fairness and balance not a goddess, a kind of universal Karma, The same applies to Apophis, principle of chaos and destruction, and Khepri, universal principle of transformation. The Crowley suggested invoking the IAO to send HRU, to connect with a vibration. For me the Tarot, is a conscious manifestation, works with mirrors and universal principles, where the Ancient Egyptians, namely Thoth, God of wisdom and knowledge developed. The true meaning of Tarot is the symbolism, once understood we received the ability to perceive the hidden mysteries and ourselves and the Tarot is something that we do not control, like dreams, when we control the dreams, no symbolism happens.

But each one follows what feels good. You have an interesting way of looking at things, Maxx. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Maxx on 15.12.12 9:13

Yes. Each of us has to learn how each is relating with the surrounding universal current and how we receive that current....it is different for everyone. Learning how to relate to your emotional makeup touching that current, is of prime importance in learning what is actually going on. One has to learn to take this activity for just what it's meaning is to you individually. The fact that one does not understand or relate to any particular statement or proposition of some subject at any given time, does not necessarily make it any the less true or false, as the understanding or relation to that subject can change over a given time frame for anyone......but one should know the more clearly one can find the understanding of any subject or how that operation relates to them, they will find a more solid foundation of experience that is a wonderful teacher.

"Remember that the world of dreams can be very misleading, dreams can give you product of your ego. "

ANSWER .... Yes...that is correct, but that will depend on what one is using for the base or point of beginning....if I was useing the dream alone entirely as my base to forming my answer. As I mentioned, I have learned to connect with a family of spirit beings that I am now better able to converse with just like most converse with humans in this pyysical area we live. These beings I am learning and listening to and I consider their teaching and I can choose to act on or reject their suggestions. My choice. In this case I am choosing their guidance over Crowley's suggestions with the tarot. As I said, I have not read Crowley's book. I look at each dream in the same way I look at each tarot reading I do. In all cases they imput the symbolism to those cards and each reading with the cards has been very clear with that answer. In most dreams there are symbolism given and then they show me how that symbolism relates to the dream...it is like a teacher explaining a subject and making it plainer.....but not all my dreaams are given to me like that.....only the important ones....all other dreams of minor subject or possibly as you mentioned...the reflextion of my ego...

I will give you an example of the previous night.....in the dream I was shown very clearly the wording of "853 stretching and healing" I was shown this 4 times during the night. Between this I saw a man cross his right leg under the left and then slowly roll backward on the pavement into a yoga position. Then another came and went into a different yoga position. As I walked by to view each I moved on and found a third person there that was crippled lying their with deformed extremities. There were other things shown but this was the section I want to show you. The next day in conversation with a spirit, I asked what this dream was meaning to me and since it was so very plain and in color I asked who sent it? The spirit being told me who it came from, I know that being very well, and it was told that the 853 means primarlly in the morning I should do stretching exercise each morning or evening if that suits my schedule better.....but light stretching or yoga to eliminate the minor aches in my lower back from sitting or driving long distances as well as getting rid of aches and stiffness in my neck.....this will help me be problem free as growing older stops many from doing things as pain can be uncomfortable for living day to day. So given this instruction and in this manner I can choose to do this exercise or not, for helping me live a better life. One can look at the Seth material and get a better idea of a converstatin with a spirit can take place in a beneficial manner but I am not possessed at any time in these conversations.....and these beings have never given me any lies. I have encountered other beings that have tried to enter the dialogue and my spirits have pointed out how to tell the difference with the beings that lie....it is a process to be learned in how to tell when you are being lied to or being told the truth.....just like you deal with humans on a day to day basis.....I ask how many lies or you being told daily from other humans you interact with.....you know those you can absolutely trust and those that you have to test what you are hearing from them...
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Maxx on 15.12.12 9:40

I can add that your base in dealing with anything is important. For example, one can speak with a Christian that has been programmed using that bible. They use the scriptures as being 100 % correct.....and using that scripture as their base, they may err as the scripture they are using is placed there for symbolism....but they think it is literal meaning for everyone....
So my point is that one's base is very important.

In my thinking, I prefer to interact and use the knowledge base of the spirit beings I know, over what one of a more limited knowledge base has to offer. (Like many humans or writings of most humans). Some would say I am halucinating, others will view it as unnatural because they, themselves, have never made contact or made any attempt to open that dialogue with any spirit beings so that process cannot be real for anyone else since that is not the base that one uses......

But this whole subject relating to dreams and tarot and much, much more one can find all kinds of ideas and writings and then choose the base they prefer to use as truth or untruth.....

I will prefer to study and find where this will lead me through out the rest of my life here.

One comes and goes on this and other forums....after a while, you find that those persons enter and stay a while and then move on and they make very very few posts any more.....it is all a matter of change. Everything is in a constant state of change. At this point, I am preferring to move on to other concepts and ideas and no longer have much interest in taking to writing at all in any forum. I have deleted my account on other forums as well and I feel it is no longer important for me to roam and interact. As I have mentioned before I do not consider myself a Vampire at all so I do not have any interest in the life style of one wanting to know about taking blood and having relationships with others that find interst in this. I do not condemn anything at all....I just prefer interests in other areas.....I do wish you all seasons best wishes and that each find in life their purpose for their higher advancement connecting with their best interests. I thank you all....all of you....for being you and having the courage to meet the unknown in this life experience. Best wishes again to everyone.

Maxx and twin brother ..... Uncle Fester.....lol.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Maxx on 15.12.12 14:11

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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Jonathan on 15.12.12 17:24

Take care and see you soon Maxx. You're always welcome in this community.

We are all in the same road, that of spiritual evolution.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Kalb on 22.12.12 6:54

I found your article very honest, Maxx. At least you have the courage to admit your choices without fear. I agree with Jonathan about yourself. You're always welcome here.
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Re: Killing the Thoth deck

Post by Syrianeh on 22.12.12 16:37

I just read this. Maxx, you will be missed as you always are. Come back soon, if you ever want to take a little peek on this side of the road.

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