Primal Craft personality cult and fake power

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Post by Sarrum on Mon 21 Sep - 16:50

Sir, thanks for your answer, I also cant see a point to keep on arguing about it, it was just curiosity.

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Post by Maxx on Mon 21 Sep - 16:53

I understand. keep happy.
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Post by James on Mon 21 Sep - 19:03

Sarrum wrote:Hello everyone, I hope Admins would understand why Primal Craft practitioners would follow this topic and become a member of this forum, (which is very interesting for sure, I have never heard of Order of Aset Ka before, thanks to Mr. Dunn, I now dig in), as one of them, I have a question to Mr. Dunn, I tried to follow all entries and the story, but I really cant go beyond the title; Fake Power? which power would you consider as fake? as far as I understand, you dont practice primal craft, so how do you know any of its power is fake? or do you practice primal craft and still you think its power is fake, because of the scribe of those books is a cult leader? in which point you dont advice people to enter that cult? is it because its power is fake (you probably need to have a screenshot for that too.)? or do you advice it because you dont like it? or it is just not for you? so, you think it is fake, just because you have had a problem with its gatekeeper? please dont take my words offensive, I am really curious about the answers, and sorry for my bad English, it is not my native language thanks in advance.

Hello. I didn’t think what you asked is offensive and I will try to give you an honest and respectful answer, the way that I see it. I do have worked with primal craft but I’m not advanced in the system and always made that clear, so what you’re saying that I don’t practice primal craft is false. I do practice it. Also being new to this system doesn’t mean that I’m new to witchcraft, which I am not. Same thing can be said about Hekate, which I know from before primal craft. So I hope this helped explain one of your questions.

As for the fake power, I was speaking directly about what Mark Alan Smith defines as primal craft, which to me isn’t the real Primal Craft. As other people have also explained in here, primal traditions are tied to the very fabric of our spiritual world, they’re not created by someone or tied to a mere mortal.
So what I am saying it’s not that there is no power in working with Hekate or that there is no power in working with any of the existing primal currents, they are real. I believe I explained this a few times in this thread already and it was also voiced by other users as well, but I will try to describe it again.
I don’t have a problem with the gatekeeper, what I do think is that he actually isn’t a real gatekeeper. As others in here have described, both Mark and Matthew have been removed from the primal current of Hecate. They are not in touch with the Goddess and what they are working with right now is an egregore, although please understand that they might not be aware of this, so by denying it they aren’t necessarily lying but simply unaware. There are many reasons to fundament this conviction from a point of metaphysical practice. One of the most clear ones is that how both Mark and Matthew act and behave shows a spiritual immaturity that is not aligned with someone in contact with a real divine force, especially not a primal one. Primal powers such as Hekate are mighty forces of liberation, so their teachings are in some ways actually opposed to the ways that are being taught within PC as of right now. Primal deities are adversarial forces, they thrive in darkness and silence, not encourage a herd mentality and an obsessive control which mirrors the frailties of ego and issues so often seen among the mundane.
With that said, I do believe that at some point in time Mark might have had real contact with Hecate and that explains why the books are still useful in some parts, even to those people he supposedly “cut off” from the current but who still have great results. Along the way he has likely lost touch with those powers due to his own ego and desire to control, both qualities of mortals, which is a trial many other occultists have failed as well. So again, my issue is not with the current or with the spirits, it’s with the human element and the visible weakness of that humanity. Because like it or not, it doesn’t take a genius or a master to analyze Mark and Matthew’s mindset through how they communicate and express themselves to see right through it, that there is no divine spark. On the other hand you have several people working with Primal Craft without Mark and who don’t acknowledge him as gatekeeper yet they have reached further than him in the evolutional process of the soul, so I personally find that fascinating and that is what I meant by fake power. When Mark cuts someone off from the current, that doesn’t happen. When he says Hecate gave him seals on his hands to destroy souls, that is not real. Those are things very much fake to a real occultist and they are proven as fake. Despite all of Mark’s and Matthew’s efforts to silence me and destroy me, here I am untouched by everything. Not even a headache. That’s not real power.
You can also see what I am saying by studying the books themselves, since the first Trident trilogy is Mark’s best work, and Queen of Hell the best of those three, while he was still in touch with some degree of the current, but later works like the Way of Sacrifice trilogy (Altar of Sacrifice, Witchblood Grail, Crown Prince of the Sabbat) with the creation of the Four Pillars of Fire have really lowered their spiritual quality and vibration, have way more conceptual errors in ritual and approach, and overall are far more uninspired and irrelevant works which match perfectly with him having been removed from the current and trying to find his way.
Also remember that this isn’t solely something I came to the conclusion myself, but it’s a thought process that has also been reached by actual initiates of primal craft with years of experience in the current, people way more in touch with the true Primal Witchcraft of Hecate than me. It’s something that can be sensed on a metaphysical level as well, but then again not everyone has that ability or sensitivity.

So you asked and I gave you my honest take on this, which I respect if you disagree with but it is my own perspective that you asked for. The important ideology to take from all of this is that no one is your gatekeeper to primal divine powers, that connection is purer when established directly, without filters, chains and egregores. The fact that some people like to role-play as gatekeepers of a current and being the Chosen One of the Goddess is a very strong indication that they are fake. Hence the fake power. Whether they are being dishonest or they are being delusional, so pick one. That is neophyte level understanding.

The issue here and why some people are deceived by this is because they have no actual experience with spiritual work and witchcraft. If they did, it wouldn’t be hard to see right through the words of a gatekeeper pretending to be the sole voice of a Goddess. That is fiction. People who blindly believe that concept are being brainwashed and allowing another to get ahold of their own inner power. That’s always a very bad idea and something to never do in any real Left Hand Path of dark magick.

I hope that I helped answer your questions and doubts. I am trying to be as honest and upfront as I can about this, which I feel is the only way to being respectful towards others but also towards Self.

Peace.

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Post by Rhea Kaye on Mon 21 Sep - 21:15

All I can say is, wow, all of this really is somewhat pointless. Our friend Matthew is over in that group claiming someone from the Aset Ka personally reached out to him through this forum to warn him about how James doesn't speak for the Asetians.
I'm sorry but at this point it kind of looks like even your reading comprehension is in question. The only mature thing you've done so far is encourage these people not to flock to VF to cause drama, yet on the other hand it seems you make the same claims every other uneducated person makes about Asetianism.

Yes I get it, not everyone understands. But is there really an excuse? Because you've been sitting there online this whole time, reading everything that people have been saying. If you even read Sybil's message and your response to what she said was, "oh nice, an Asetian from the Aset Ka is messaging me about this, and reaffirming James isn't with them!" then my oh my, you definitely haven't been paying attention. Lol. I mean, you could always try, oh I don't know... researching about the things you're talking about, before dispensing information about it?

If you're going to continue a divine chosen one crusade against people who offer up criticisms, can you do it without claiming to be in direct contact with the Aset Ka? Because now it is you who looks very silly, ironically enough considering you're mirroring that. Sybil even left a message expressly stating this forum's lack of affiliation with the Aset Ka and it was apparently like speaking to head-shaped concrete.

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Post by Jonathan on Tue 22 Sep - 5:52

Also interesting to note that this thread alone got well over 2000 hits in less than three days. So it’s clear who has this under observation. Wink
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Post by James on Tue 22 Sep - 9:28

Rhea Kaye wrote:All I can say is, wow, all of this really is somewhat pointless.  Our friend Matthew is over in that group claiming someone from the Aset Ka personally reached out to him through this forum to warn him about how James doesn't speak for the Asetians.
I'm sorry but at this point it kind of looks like even your reading comprehension is in question. The only mature thing you've done so far is encourage these people not to flock to VF to cause drama, yet on the other hand it seems you make the same claims every other uneducated person makes about Asetianism.  

Yes I get it, not everyone understands.  But is there really an excuse? Because you've been sitting there online this whole time, reading everything that people have been saying.  If you even read Sybil's message and your response to what she said was, "oh nice, an Asetian from the Aset Ka is messaging me about this, and reaffirming James isn't with them!" then my oh my, you definitely haven't been paying attention. Lol. I mean, you could always try, oh I don't know... researching about the things you're talking about, before dispensing information about it?

If you're going to continue a divine chosen one crusade against people who offer up criticisms, can you do it without claiming to be in direct contact with the Aset Ka? Because now it is you who looks very silly, ironically enough considering you're mirroring that. Sybil even left a message expressly stating this forum's lack of affiliation with the Aset Ka and it was apparently like speaking to head-shaped concrete.

It doesn’t surprise me after the many lies he was caught spreading about me and even attempting it on a place like this. As others have said, he exposed himself, he didn’t need my help or influence.

I was also shown that he has copied my text from here into his group but intentionally trimmed off the part where I say that I’m trying to give a respectful answer and also provide some background of my practice, keeping only the parts of the text where I address the subject of fake power. So his deceptive ways of manipulating others continue.

He is also telling them on that post that I'm here saying Mark doesn't own his books and lost rights to them. I never said that. Of course Mark owns his books and he has every right to charge for them. That was never brought into question. What I did say is that Mark doesn't own the primal current. No one does. The current has existed long before Mark learned how to write.

Additionally both him and Danya (the submissive one) are there telling everyone that I’m a fake profile for that Yuri guy, when they KNOW I have proven that not to be true. We're not even in the same continent! So intentional deception and lies, which is sad.

It’s all for the show, there is no care or consideration for truth or facts over there. By the few likes there you can easily gauge at who is capable of critical thinking from those who just eat everything they’re spoonfed without any type of internal questioning process. These are the sort of people that if Matthew tells them that a large spider hand of Sepheranz will mystically fall from the sky to chose the next president while he howls at the full moon in full werewolf transformation they will all praise him for the “gnosis” and be wowed without even thinking or starting to question what sense does that make in reality.

Anyways I've asked people not to bother Matthew or the others in private and not to do anything against him as he's already going through a rough time as it is, so I’ll add the same in here. I know that the attitudes are silly, narcissistic even, but this is something for people to pity, just the same way I look at blind evangelicals or paranoid scientologists. They’re just uncultured souls who likely never had a chance at former education or were taught rudimentary science and psychology, so I really can’t hold it against them with any hatred in my heart.

I believe the best lesson we can teach them is precisely in being the better person, embracing the higher road.

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Post by Rhea Kaye on Tue 22 Sep - 9:57

Oh I definitely don't think people from here will be the ones going to harass Matthew in anyway. Still, it's interesting to watch how he is manipulating people behind the scenes. I am sure he is under instructions of some kind.
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Post by Maxx on Tue 22 Sep - 10:13

doubtful. the sooner it all dies down and is forgotten the sooner all goes back to normal to whatever that is. This is nothing but a blip in the road.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on Tue 22 Sep - 15:16

Maxx wrote:doubtful.  the sooner it all dies down and is forgotten the sooner all goes back to normal to whatever that is.  This is nothing but a blip in the road.

Depends. Do you think that way? Do you promote that way? Sure, that'll be the influence, and thus a greater likeliness for it being the consequence upon reception. Do you not think that way? Do you not promote that way? Sure, that'll not be the influence, and thus a lesser likeliness for it being the consequence upon no reception. Are you aiming at anything in particular? Am I aiming at anything in particular?

I think, personally, this notification to awareness and challenge of authenticity has been essential with possible importance for people involved in said areas not to fall for traps or to simply discern for themselves in place where they might not normally have done that. Much has been mentioned here regarding the nature of Left Hand Path and I say it dazzles like a fire burning brightly within darkness, perhaps for a productive reason rather than to catch attention out of whim. But intended for just reasons and fair dealings. There were chances given, and chances neglected. Honest confrontations, and evasions. It'll speak for itself, or, it'll indeed become as you say, Maxx. Be it as it may.

... But the power of documentation to the importance of how things fare within different public groups and circles *if* relevant - although we shouldn't meddle in each other's business to the extent that we try to impose control upon others (or even deal with it if unneeded - but for some reason, in this case, it came up to our community or this forum anyways), nor even ourselves within a group (!) - holds potential key to caution and raising of awareness that in fact holds people accountable to honesty and thus higher standards (per the definition of more qualitative and honorable operations and dealings internally and externally with different people involved), even if, yet again, we shouldn't directly infringe upon separate and distinct territories that are not really our own by intervening in their affairs and imposing authoritarian regulation by whatever silly means, which is neither their (which we point out, i.e. Mark as sole gatekeeper and chosen with final authority over all in that actual spiritual current, from what some of our perspectives and standpoints might say) nor our (such as in the case of unrighteous attempting to impose control upon them or others) right, but taking this note of awareness in an indirect fashion of informative understanding only. I see no problem with that in and of itself. [...]

[...] But that ties back in with what was mentioned about the harassment part, if people would act upon that information in any hostile, rude or harassing manner - that should *never* be the case. Primal Craft practitioners should be respected from our side of things from this forum just as much as they should respect others outside of their current who follow different paths and traditions, like our own, for the most part, or to a general level of fundamental, basic respect - even if there are disagreements on points of detail and overall approach. An Adversary cannot rise but through respect, but for knowledge, in my view - respect, a key for understanding and to knowledge, even if that knowledge and understanding has to be wielded according to justice, truth, balance and honor; and such is therefore an Adversary of a very sophisticated kind and to them (their ideals and/or standards) for right reasons but which might weld both lighter and darker sides of truth for its sake of revelation through honesty, and indeed in balance, where liberation of both strength, truth, wisdom and spirit is the primal goal (also of apotheosis), unafraid of outside opinion and unapologetic for its truth, but so appearing as a devil of evil monstrosity to those enslaved by weakness, drowning in lies and perpetrating foolishness. That's not the issue. I hope that is all perfectly clear from this whole thread's discourse and discussion, being clearly differentiated.
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Post by Maxx on Tue 22 Sep - 16:32

You do make a point.  But the point just strengthens my thought regarding the issue I formed while watching it all. And I actually was agreeing with everyone here when it started but as it all progressed my view of it changed.  I would be open to changing my opinion back if I was presented with other options that would have me see another side of it.....and not only that.... but see it and agree with it from my own 104 year experience.  LOL. See, it was only about two weeks ago that I would have been agreeing with you, and Rhea and most others here.  But as I watched this and saw it unfold I had different views come into focus on this which changed my opinion.  Not about the magical current or much regarding the personalities involved with the current and how they can change over time, but of the aspect of becoming someone who is meddling in other affairs.  One can be right or wrong, makes no dif, and begin to become involved in someone elses affairs down the street and one should be very careful regarding the amount of involvement pushing into that activity. Are we really our brothers keeper?  What about free will?  What about choices made before being born?  Various things such as this I began to see that might have an effect on what is going on here.   Also, just my thought, but James would not have come here at all if there was not an individual that suggested he come here in the first place.  That individual seems to be involved in much of the behind the scenes workings here now.  lol.  Not an issue as that is what they feel they should be doing.  That may be their lot in life to direct traffic.

Are you expecting me to change my thoughts because you posted the above?  Are you desiring me to change my opinion because of your statement above?  Some of the comments I read in all of this I asked myself, would I want that person making my decision for me in this case?  Hell no.  I would want to make my own decision and if I reached that crossroad of the decision, I damn would have information in my life already there to make my choice.  It seems like many people feel that their info in their mind is most important and more enlightened than someone else.  That is actually what I am taking home from all this looking at it.  I personally now do not believe that.  Because of my view in this manner I, and most of you, see me disagreeing with you.  What is wrong with that?  Jon and I do not agree with hardly anything at all.  I see that as very good.  He sees that as very good.  We would not want to live the life daily of the other.  I see that as a great thing because we can make our choices at the crossroads when we come to it.  And Good God, I could not see me living his life...lol.  And Mystic, think about it, you would not want to live the life of Naoom, Rhea, Jon or anyone else, I bet, and certainly not me.   You came here for a specific purpose.  And your opinions you will create will find others that disagree with you.  But I know for a fact that you or any of the others speaking here are going to change the outcome of this topic or, for that sake, anyone else's life because if it was meant to be changed there are many ways that fate steps in and gets the job done. Some thing you have a responsibility to say you are helping change opinions in the matter. What if it was not set up that way in the walk of fate and you created a switch designed to form a wrong design set in place before birth. How are you going to answer for that?  Was this reply long enough for you, by the way?  I tried. lol

Also, I know that there can be plenty of opposite comments about various what ifs, etc, but what difference will it all make now? It is over and you can deal with how you each look back and reflect on that which happened. As Vblack asked, what did we learn. Ha. Still waiting on his intro....
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Post by Maxx on Tue 22 Sep - 16:34

correction. I meant to type the word "not" in that sentence. you know the one I mean. Now everyone will at least read the damn thing instead of skimming over it.
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Post by James on Tue 22 Sep - 17:02

Maxx wrote:Also, just my thought, but James would not have come here at all if there was not an individual that suggested he come here in the first place.  That individual seems to be involved in much of the behind the scenes workings here now.  lol.

False. No one recommended this forum to me, I found it through a research query on a search engine.

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Post by Maxx on Tue 22 Sep - 17:17

really? and I said it was just my thought about it......but odd it occurred at the same time all this was happening on the PC site, but I will take your word for it. With the discussion about PC here you can see how fate can design your interstate hwy???? lol.
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Post by Void on Tue 22 Sep - 17:21

Does it have to be an individual? Maybe James simply got "inspired" to come here by some greater force Very Happy
But I do wonder what search query exactly brings vampirism forum to first page. Unless searched specifically for "Asetian Forum" (or similar specific term) google don't offer me this forum, wondering purely for personal reference.
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Post by James on Tue 22 Sep - 17:35

Void: I was indeed searching about Asetianism. Smile

But on that subject this forum actually shows up on top to me on Google for an assorted variance of queries on occult topics and VC personalities.

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Post by Maxx on Tue 22 Sep - 17:38

right but I did not pursue that as it fell right into the lap of my illustration of fate rolling into the picture.  But I think there was something written about others being there and being involved on the facebook site or going over to read on it about the facebook group from PC.  Do not know and I damn sure do not want to go back into that thread to find it.  ha.

Actually, I find the whole ordeal rather funny in a low way overlooking how it all came down and all the involvement in the thread.

And that number of views is not that many different people viewing but maybe 300 viewing in and clicking over and over as they would catch up on what they missed since the last read.  Again, just my thought.

And Mark should be happy with all the notoriety as you know the saying, any kind of spotlight is great advertising.
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Post by Void on Tue 22 Sep - 17:56

James wrote:Void: I was indeed searching about Asetianism. Smile

But on that subject this forum actually shows up on top to me on Google for an assorted variance of queries on occult topics and VC personalities.
Oh I see, so there are Asetian people in PC talking about this path? Or how did you come know this community?
Since everyone here on this thread start with "I never heard before about Aset-Ka, I just accidentally stubbled on it today.."
Matt there said he left all forums ages ago, I asked him which forums, he said this forum specifically, even though he said he never heard of Aset-Ka in his life. And you too stumbled here completely randomly looking for something very specific.
Everyone seem to completely randomly search for specifically this forum, makes me wonder a little about the nature of the randomness Laughing
Sorry if we are completely off topic, I just often get very fascinated by completely minor details.
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Post by Maxx on Tue 22 Sep - 18:05

Look out Void, you will become associated as already have fallen into the black abyss with me. You will be classified as a Black Shepard. I told someone else to be careful siding with anything I do here, lol. You will have a crowd with pitchforks and lanterns chasing you screaming. lol.
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Post by James on Tue 22 Sep - 18:12

Void: Can't speak for others or that inconsistency in Matthew's claims, even though it's pretty obvious that he reads this forum regularly and keeps it under surveillance since he jumped on my thread to do damage control only a few hours after I posted here. But in my specific case there is no esoteric explanation to this as I have been studying the Asetian path for a few months now but mostly just in literature through great grimoires like The Violet Throne published by the Order of Aset Ka. At 900 pages it's one of the most massive books in my collection and I do have a lot!  Embarassed

As for Asetianists within Primal Craft, yes that also exists from what I discovered, although they keep the Asetian studies of their path private for the most part and don't share it much with other PC devotees. Anyways, I can only speak for myself not them. Smile

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Post by Void on Tue 22 Sep - 18:18

Maxx wrote:Look out Void, you will become associated as already have fallen into the black abyss with me.  You will be classified as a Black Shepard.  I told someone else to be careful siding with anything I do here, lol.  You will have a crowd with pitchforks and lanterns chasing you screaming.  lol.
"Black Shepard"? I had many labels over the years, but I've never been called that yet, sounds kinda cool though Laughing
Don't mind, neither about what other people think of me, though preferably it's not something too terrible. Nor I mind what other people think about each other, like in this thread, entire drama have completely nothing to do with me, at least to the best of my knowledge. I just sometimes get distracted by, or attracted to curious things people do or say, especially when those things don't quite add up. Who doesn't like solving puzzles?  Very Happy
As it was said once by someone much wiser than me: "truth is the first casualty of every war".
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Post by Void on Tue 22 Sep - 18:29

James wrote:Void: Can't speak for others or that inconsistency in Matthew's claims, even though it's pretty obvious that he reads this forum regularly and keeps it under surveillance since he jumped on my thread to do damage control only a few hours after I posted here. But in my specific case there is no esoteric explanation to this as I have been studying the Asetian path for a few months now but mostly just in literature through great grimoires like The Violet Throne published by the Order of Aset Ka. At 900 pages it's one of the most massive books in my collection and I do have a lot!  Embarassed

As for Asetianists within Primal Craft, yes that also exists from what I discovered, although they keep the Asetian studies of their path private for the most part and don't share it much with other PC devotees. Anyways, I can only speak for myself not them. Smile
Oh I see, so you've been a fairly devoted Asetian your self, secretly, for months, you just never thought before of looking for like-minded community before, and when that thing happened and you needed some place to share you message, "Asetians" was one of the first thing that came to your mind, something like that?
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Post by James on Tue 22 Sep - 18:37

Not quite. I'm new to Asetianism, as I said I only study it for some months, which for a tradition like Asetianism seems to be nothing really so I'm pretty new to the tradition and inexperienced with its magick. Not secretly either, just privately as I do most of my magickal work. Also as I said I didn't only share it here, you can find this same post in most Hekate groups on Facebook.

I would recommend you reading what Sybil, one of the site administrators, wrote in this thread about Asetians on social media. You wouldn't be asking if I'm an Asetian if you had read that.

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Post by Void on Tue 22 Sep - 18:45

James wrote:Not quite. I'm new to Asetianism, as I said I only study it for some months, which for a tradition like Asetianism seems to be nothing really so I'm pretty new to the tradition and inexperienced with its magick. Not secretly either, just privately as I do most of my magickal work. Also as I said I didn't only share it here, you can find this same post in most Hekate groups on Facebook.

I would recommend you reading what Sybil, one of the site administrators, wrote in this thread about Asetians on social media. You wouldn't be asking if I'm an Asetian if you had read that.
Oh, I see. Well because you mentioned Violet Throne, I was under impression you are quite deep in to it. An honest mistake on my part. since Violet Throne generally considered an advanced material for Asetian studies. Especially since it price is quite high, I always thought it takes some deeper commitment in to path. People tend to start from a bible, and move on to Violet Throne down the road if they feel they should. And you even knew how many pages in there without even checking, quite impressive for someone very new to this path.
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Post by James on Tue 22 Sep - 18:53

You get impressed by little, if just knowing total book pages is enough to impress you.

You’re still missing the point. Reading and practicing The Violet Throne still doesn’t make anyone an Asetian.

Oh and book prices don’t mean much to me. You find The Violet Throne price high? I have grimoires that cost me several hundred.

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Post by James on Tue 22 Sep - 18:56

Primal Craft books cost the same as The Violet Throne or more and they have only a small fraction of the content and gnosis. Some are not even a third of the pages long. Now you'll get really impressed as I know the PC books pages as well. Very Happy

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