RHP/LHP: What’s the Difference?

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Post by TrillaCruile 29.01.23 21:49

I am beginning this Thread on LHP and RHP to continue a discussion brought up on another topic, if others would like to join in on the subject as well.

MysticLightShinethForth wrote:About the LHP/RHP, I've long wondered about that notion as found in the Book of Orion, because it's different from the average conceptions about LHP/RHP. What's your take on that? To me I'd view more the traversing either of Tree of Life or Tree of Death as constituting the real kernels of RHP/LHP, though that's different even from my approach in aforementioned replies which took into consideration different approaches, mindsets and philosophies, as well traditions and adjoining practices, to occultism and spirituality where RHP would be more in alignment with service to the whole of humanity in a charitable light and under a higher power found either inside or outside, but with a common leaning towards the latter in a greater holistic view of universal totality or oneness, and LHP simply more individualistically centered and sought of Self-realization, evolution, development and introspection, as well as finding the divine spark within rather than anywhere else, though they're not mutually exclusive but one may be more connoted by predominantly light-oriented ways, philosophies and practices and the other by its stark opposites as venturing into more forbidden depths and magickal experience of metaphysical darkness. It might be a popular understanding, though, but seems true to part of my experience. Contrasting and comparing it to the Book of Orion's description I find a harder time to reconcile the two notions, though there might be hidden clues upon closer study of and familiarization with the Tree, as I must admit the Kabbalah is not my strongest point.

In reference to Mystic’s question:
My views are not perfect, and may be somewhat inaccurate too. I would like to hear ideas, interpretations, and thoughts on it whether in agreement or not.

Considering the subject matter:

Definitions of the Left Hand Path and Right Hand Path are not 100% accurate as found within the mainstream view of popular occultism. Even definitions of “Light and dark” can be misinterpreted in such spheres of thought. Some associations with the Right Hand path, such as the Light of Consciousness being related to the right side of the Tree, are more accurate. Some associations, however, are downright made-up— such as how following the Right Hand Path saves Humanity and how following the Left Hand Path is detrimental/Evil. Notice how Passion, Desire and Love are qualities attributed to both Heidr and the Right Side of the Tree of Life.

Roman Catholics say:
“He is Seated at the Right Hand of the Father”
(“Jesus” being Chokmah in some branches of Christian Cabala, the Father being Kether; other traditions including Thelema place Jesus in Tiphareth as an archetype of the Sun…yet others still place his image in Netzach, sphere of the Ego.)

Humanity has seen many changes, and some of the more evolved occurrences have happened on behalf of Left Hand Occultists. When speaking of “betterment” or “destruction” of the world, LHP practicioners have moved mountains, and the same can be said for Transformational RHP walkers. While some right hand paths may focus more on others, it is no less of a path for self-evolution. The way of the scarab is to transform the dung; through doing so the scarab gives birth to something new. When speaking in context of predatory spirituality, a Vampire-Donor contrast is visible as well. For example, Viperines and Scorpions are both known to benefit greatly from the generative donors of Scarab Ka. The Three Threads on the Tree spin together the Web of the World.

Those were just some symbolic ideas I wanted to throw around to offer some insight on the connection between the paths and the symbols of the lineages but the true mysteries behind the vampiric concepts and Transformation are not fully relevant to the discussion nor possible to unlock with mere reading or interpretation, nor are the Pillars simply symbols to be interpreted.

As for the spheres and paths upon the Tree… Every Sphere or Sephirah is dual and has dual emanations: it’s Virtue in the sephirah and its Vice in its qlippoth. This can be understood as seen in a quote below through the examples of Saturn and Venus being both Whore and Virgin as well as Masculine and Feminine. Duality exists everywhere on the Tree.

The spheres are not realms in actuality by spheres to learn from; and they are certainly never stagnant or permanent. They are transforming; there is movement amongst the stars. One may be initiated into a certain “Realm” but while incarnated, their consciousness will return to Malkuth after every travel.

The paths are also two directional as mentioned in the Book of Orion. One may walk from Yesod to Tiphareth or Tiphareth to Yesod.

Connections I’ve noted between The Primordial Dragon Tradition and the Three Sephirah Above the Abyss in the Asetian Kabbalah system and their emanations below the abyss that form the rest of the Tree:

Lady of Fire and Ice Gullveig resides in Jarnvidr in the East, Mother of Abominations Heiðr resides in Muspellheimr in the South and the Shadow of the Dragon Hel resides in Niflheimr in the West of the Underworld. (This elementally corresponds without contradiction to the ritual magick laid out in Violet Throne— the East being associated with Air, South with Fire, West with Water.)

The elements are associated with the pillars on the tree of life as well— air being at the root of the middle pillar; fire being at the root of the right pillar and water being at the root of the left pillar.

The connections are also directly connected to Life, Death and Rebirth in the Violet throne and implies some of the practices on both sides of the Tree.

The Sebayt of Khufu is connected to the Middle Path and the energies of Immortality in Kether.
The Sebayt of Khafre is connected to the Right Hand Path and the energies of Life in Chokmah.
The Sebayt of Menkaure is connected to Left Hand Path and the energies of Death in Binah.

The connections are further matched in the Tradition of the Primordial Dragon, as truth doesn’t contradict itself.

Primordial Dragon Website wrote:Gullveig is the Black Dragon and the central head of the Primordial Beast, the undecipherable blackness of raw power that nurtures the seed of immortality; She is the absolute otherness that the mundane mind cannot grasp or comprehend, as only through the pouring blood of the Dragon such voiceless voice can be heard as storm, chaos and devastation.
[…]
Heiðr as a draconian emanation of the Serpent is the ruler of Fire, initiatrix of transgressive magic and teacher of the forbidden arts; the terrifying cave of all abominations. She is the primordial flames from Muspellheimr in abyssal South and the hidden forces of war, torment and poison but also those of intense passion, desire and love. Her mysteries are the secrets of sacred sexuality and these emanations can be found veiled all over the world throughout different cultures and epochs, often shamed and defaced by the frightened forces of a corrupted patriarchy.
[…]
As the left head of the Primordial Dragon the initiate finds Hel, the Shadow, an embodiment of death and ruler of Ice. The queen of Niflheimr and its deadly entourage faced through the West gateway of the abyssal circle of sorcery, Hel presents the necromantic mysteries of the grave, mound and labyrinths of the underworld, the magic of the cold and teachings of the lonely path; She is the restless obscurity during the darkest nights of the soul.
Minor notes on the spheres:
Right Hand Path
The first sephirah above Malkuth is the sphere of Venus and Sphere of the Ego.
Left Hand Path
The first sephirah above Malkuth is the sphere of Mercury and Ceremonial Magick.
Middle Path
Note the first sephirah above Malkuth is the sphere of the Moon and Psychism.

I’d include these quotes from Luis Marques to end my surface level thoughts on it.

Luis Marques in Violet Throne wrote:
The study of such gnosis aids the seeker in how to walk through the twenty-two initiatory roads in order to achieve communion with each sephirah in a state of spiritual enlightenment. Across the long journey of each personal path the student naturally shifts his awareness and mindset through different focus within the Tree, sometimes ending up relocated to a specific sephirah of thought without conscious effort or training, as they all represent universal spiritual thrones. In terms of personal growth and spiritual evolution, walking through the paths of initiation and reaching a specific sephirah does not mean that you are stalled or accomplished in that sphere. The state of each sephirah above Malkuth is not permanent, as everything in spiritual life is in constant motion and change, moved by chaos, nature and magick. So the sephiroth do not represent planes to master, but schools to learn from. They are not expressed through permanent states of enlightenment, but rather impermanent states of awareness and focus, achieved by successfully walking the twenty-two initiatory paths within the Tree of Life, being accepted by the ethereal guardians of each sephirah and to be trusted within its temple - becoming initiated in its mysteries. The temple of each sephirah embodies different attunements of perception in magickal seats of power, connected by the initiatory archetypes of creation.
Luis Marques in Violet Throne wrote:
They express what is studied within initiatory societies as The Pillars of the Mysteries. The left side of the Tree embodies feminine energies and the right side emanates the male principles, while the center unifies both male and female- described in the occult as the secret path of The Middle Pillar. On the Left there is darkness, mystery, introspection, and the secrets of the unconscious, while on the Right there is light, openness, clarity and the virtues of the conscious mind. agick. They govern the occult foundations of the Left Hand Path and the Right Hand Path, as two opposed beams leading to the same cave hidden in the ether: darkness and light, two faces of the same force— Equilibrium.

The ancient sages have also described the pillars in terms of polarity - the left being negative and the right being positive by tradition - and although such definition is valid in terms of metaphysics and magickal practice I have avoided delving deeper into the specific details of positive and negative energy frameworks, due to its potential for misunderstanding in earlier studies by the initiates with an inadequate cultural and philosophical background that may be conditioned to improper interpretation on the subjects of negative polarity and magickal destruction in spiritual alchemy. The pillars in each side of the Tree express a concept described in Asetianism as the universal duality.

Every manifestation is dual and the forces of nature, being always two-sided, unfold in an universal progression of two that as you can see, under the spiritual microscope, are actually an emanation of three; the Left, the Right and the Middle, that unifies both - oneness and completion.

Observing Binah and Chokmah in the Tree of Life, they are on the same vibrational layer but on opposed sides of the universal scale. That is in tune with the antagonistic forces of the archetypical Scorpion and Scarab as learned in the Asetian tradition. However, each sephirah, just like any subtle object of creation, embodies duality within itself. As an example of such reality, the sephirah of Binah being the highest manifestation of the divine feminine in the Tree of Life, has a double face. It is at the same time the holy virgin and the intoxicating sexual beast: a violent expression of the Sexual Flame in its purest and most divine form.

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Post by MysticLightShinethForth 30.01.23 4:51

Well, thank you for raising this subject and replying to the question. My interest is indeed what you say about, referencing the Book of Orion, the different paths on the Tree in contrast to common popular notions of LHP/RHP. Do you, however, believe it's the same type - and therefore a correction of - the same notion? By that I mean the Book of Orion would correct misnomers about LHP/RHP and place them as they actually are within the Tree.

Or, conversely, if I may play a different scenario, do you think, as I asked, if not the Tree of Death constitutes the true LHP in the normal, common terms of LHP, while the Tree of Life would be more inclined for RHP practitioners but also aspiring students of the LHP before they reach that level? The Death Tree is of course far more dangerous and forbidden (!), just like the LHP in itself is said to be.

That's where I have some diverging and hard to reconcile thoughts.
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Post by TrillaCruile 30.01.23 9:18

When considering such ideas, consider the Tarot — in its basic attributions.

According to Luis Marques there are 22 paths of Initiation, 40 signs and 16 entities represented by the cards of the Tarot.

The Tarot being attributed to the Tree lead to the idea that the paths are, as you said, corrections to the misnomers.

There are 4 Tree of Life presented amongst the Tarot:
Fire, the Tree of Life/Death in Atziluth.
Water, the Tree of Life/Death in Briah.
Air, the Tree of Life/Death in Yetzirah.
Earth, the Tree of Life/Death in Assiah.

These trees are given the 40 signs—
Wands: Ace to 10 to the Ethereal Tree of Fire.
Cups: Ace to 10 to the Astral Tree of Water.
Swords: Ace to 10 to the Inner Tree of Air.
Pentacles: Ace to 10 to the Physical Tree of Assiah.

These represent the Sephirah as they manifest in the Four Realms of Reality, and the manner in which the Soul Unfolds.

The 22 paths connecting the ‘signs’ or Sephirah are actually Initiations that one must walk through— and they are not placed within the Four different Spheres/Realms— which would have unraveled 66 more cards. The point is not to save money on printing.

This being all said, the Tree of Life has Death applied onto it, on its left path, as well as all other attributes and abominations. I find it confusing and futile to craft another “Tree of Death” which is separate, though certainly many people like to separate the two.

Life and Death are inextricably interwoven; their “Trees” are simply Glyphs which are symbols and cannot separate them; though they can separate their ideas and associations. Death itself is involved in Life. Life itself in death. Reality is more like Tree of Living and Dying and one can form symbols out of any aspect if one wishes to. (Eg. Some Jewish Kabbalist say each sephirah have a tree within as every seed has a tree).

This LHP/RHP view is only one perspective on the concepts I’m presenting and what those terms mean.

Alas, words are words. If you want to truly understand, you need to practice.

There is the microcosm and there is the macrocosmic tree— the outside tree and the inside tree.
An exercise that may help with personal understanding:
Imagine the tree of life as your own soul— that is what it represents on the microcosm.

Think about the darkest aspects of yourself and the lightest aspects of yourself. Automatically you can see they are one and the same being, yet they hold different attributes, at times you may even seem like a different person, so much so that some people call themselves possessed by demons in refusal of their dark aspects, or they may deny their existence at all.

This is the same for every tree of life— one day we will die and experience the initiation that is death itself— and we will go beyond that. There is no separation. The illusion comes from the Sarcophagus of the Flesh.

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Post by MysticLightShinethForth 30.01.23 10:31

This is quite a profound answer, thank you. I'll have to reread it a few times as my knowledge of Kabbalah and Tarot is sadly very limited, but something I wish to study more of in the future as an aspiring occultist, though I'm more of a meditating yogi and mystic in that vein - but the Kabbalah should order up that experience accordingly. lol

However, what I got for idea, and I didn't see this idea reflected in what you wrote after I got the idea necessarily, that is, upon a closer look, as I thought something tangentially a bit different but yet wished to raise the question as I'm still not sure if you hinted at it vaguely/subtly/indirectly or not, in this part of what you wrote: --

"This being all said, the Tree of Life has Death applied onto it, on its left path, as well as all other attributes and abominations. I find it confusing and futile to craft another “Tree of Death” which is separate, though certainly many people like to separate the two."

-- Do you mean the Left side of the Tree of Life has a deeper connection, somehow, inwardly toward the Tree of Death? This may sound like an interesting notion for me to entertain (and would even add up with certain esoterically embedded mythologies of a gnostic nature which I could go into a little further if it's desired but for brevity's sake I'll leave it at this time), if that's at all what you meant, but it does sound a bit contradictory to what little I know as about the Sephiroth-Qlippoth Da'ath and its formal connection to/through both the Tree of Life and Death. Excuse my ignorance there. [...]

[...] Or do you mean, somehow, with a leaning towards a formal philosophy of LHP one'd be inclined to go through the Death aspect of the Tree, regardless of where they'd stand in terms of their initiatory experience, left, right or middle?

However, in total, I agree there's much more for me to practice, or even begin formal practice of, there...
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Post by TrillaCruile 30.01.23 21:08


MysticLightShinethForth wrote:
Do you mean the Left side of the Tree of Life has a deeper connection, somehow, inwardly toward the Tree of Death? This may sound like an interesting notion for me to entertain
That perspective can be argued for with more elaboration. Within reference to Luis Marques’ words: There is mention of the four worlds, and that there are within them “further fragmented realms” which remain within the scheme of the four worlds but ingress further. I’ll leave the discussion of realms for another thread you started; refer to it here.

Both of the ideas you present as juxtapose are not contradictory. I see the left hand paths as both the actual practices in one’s life (we are all alive, aren’t we?) and the mental/astral/ethereal spheres we project our soul into… not sure if that clears things up a little. The death aspect would be delving into the realms of the nonliving, whilst alive… rather a different face of the tree, no? Consider the part about initiations differing from the spheres on the tree. The initiations on the left hand path and right hand path and middle path, and those connecting them vs. the mental, astral and ethereal realms of the LHP, RHP and secretive middle path.

It is of relevance to mention that Malkuth is not considered part of any path as it is of a lesser realm in Assiah.

In your thinking, what would be considered a Right Hand Path on the Qlippoth? What would be a Left Hand Path on the Tree of Life?

To approach the Dragon Gods of the Primordial Abyss should not be taken lightly, but I see the left hand path as described by the Primordial Dragon Tradition:
Primordial Dragon Website wrote:
“The queen of Niftheimr and its deadly entourage faced through the West gateway of the abyssal circle of sorcery, Hel presents the necromantic mysteries of the grave, mound and labyrinths of the underworld, the magic of the cold and teachings of the lonely path; She is the restless obscurity during the darkest nights of the soul.”
As for the Qabalah;
Aleister Crowley in “Magick Without Tears” wrote:
Now you must learn Qabalah. Learn this Alphabet of Magick. You must take it on trust, as a child does his own alphabet. No one has ever found out why the order of the letters is what it is. Probably there isn't any answer.
[…]
But our Magical Alphabet is primarily not letters, but figures, not sounds but mathematical ideas. Sir Humphrey Davy, coming out of his famous
illumination (with some help from Nitrous Oxide he got in) exclaimed: The Universe is composed solely of ideas. We, analyzing this a little, say: The Universe is a mathematical expression.
[…]
The Tree of Life has got to be learnt by heart; you must know it back-wards, forwards, sideways, and upside down; it must become the automatic background of all your thinking. You must keep on hanging everything that comes your way upon its proper bough.

At first, of course, all this is dreadfully confusing; but persist, and time will come when all the odd bits fit into the jig-saw, and you behold --- with what adoring wonder! the marvellous beauty and symmetry of the Qabalistic system.
And then --- what a weapon you will have forged!
[…]
What power to analyze, to order, to manipulate your thinking!

And please remember when people compliment you on your memory or the clarity of your thought, to give credit to the Qabalah!

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Post by TrillaCruile 31.01.23 23:37

Luis Marques in Asetian Bible wrote:
Another subjective theme under an occultist perspective is the embrace of darkness from the initiate. The jump into the sphere of Da'ath and the confrontation with Choronzon.

Nowadays it is common to use the definitions of Left Hand Path and Right Hand Path to describe two different and somewhat opposed paths within the myriad of occult traditions available. It is also common to parallel Left Hand Path and Right Hand Path with Black and White Magick, while in fact true magick knows no color, nor is it defined by practicing good or evil. Those words are only perspectives, usually from a social or religious point of view, so the concepts of evil are in fact very subjective, and are not the guidelines that define the nature of the magick practices.

The dark path, or Left Hand, is a world of mystical traditions more empowered by introspection, personal evolution and development, usually more connected with the practices of High Magick. They are not so conditioned by religious dogma, are not static in nature, don't follow strict rules and always promote self-achievement and personal conquest, on an evolutionary point of view. So it is easily understood that a dark sorcerer, for example, does not implicitly practice evil magick, although he can if he so wishes. It is up to the sorcerer alone the use he gives to his own knowledge and powers, and that does not define his actions as black or white. That is defined by the techniques and knowledge he uses, as the traditions he follows, and not by the consequences of his mystical practices.

"On the altar of the Devil, up is doron.
Pleasure is pain, darkness is light.
Slavery is freedom, and madness is sanity."
- Anton La Vey

The Asetians are by themselves creatures of darkness. This is easily seen on many manifestations, from their introspective natures, meditative workings, antisocial behaviors, elitist ideologies, magickal practices and, above all, their predatory instincts.

Vampires easily find different ways to harness their powers and fuel their abilities within the dark energies. This is related not only with metaphysical darkness but also with the physical one, since it is common for vampires to access some of their powers more easily at night and usually have a heightened sensitivity towards the Sun and bright light, many even being weakened during direct sunlight.
Luis Marques in Violet Throne wrote:
Unknown to the world and unseen to the eyes of mortals Aset rises as Queen of darkness, the divine shadow of death; Mother of torment and crafter of nightmares. Her inscrutable face revealed by the pale light of the Moon is so terrifying that knowledge of Her abominating powers was erased from the pages of history, now only spoken through whispers and taught in secret. Many ancient myths were obfuscated and retold under different light, until popular knowledge from later dynasties portrayed a decadent and misunderstood understanding of the original Aset, now lost to those practicing the arts of old outside of the wisdom of unbroken mystery schools. The indescribable nature of the infernal aspect of this primordial Goddess can only be understood through initiation and communion with Her elder Fire. To study this element of Asetian gnosis and pursue those hidden teachings is the path of the warrior - a sword of the samurai as conqueror of the soul. It is a dangerous and treacherous road where the spirit is challenged and tested to the point of primal manifestation. The breath of life is consumed and any value that life once had stands on the edge of a timeless blade: one held by the storm of Her gracious hands.

This facet of darkness seeded by Aset is also present in the inner nature of the Asetians and an element of spiritual abstraction that is also embraced by Asetianists of different nature. Darkness should not be interpreted as a manifestation of evil as it is in fact an essence of liberation and the path of illumination through wisdom. It is the denial of ignorance, the breaking of ego and the opposing of vanity, falsehood and dishonesty. Such dark seed can only be found within and never in the judgment of others that should be discarded or recycled as empowering accomplishment.

A student of the occult may be faced with the misinformed notion that a dark or light tradition, just like the philosophies of left hand and right hand path, are in some way related with the practice of black magick and white sorcery - that is utterly false and a misguided expression of ignorance. In truth magick knows no color and attaches to no polarity; it cannot be defined by evilness or goodness. Good and evil are merely perspectives tied to a tapestry of ethics, religions, ideals and culture, so they cannot define the nature of magick. To describe something as evil is highly subjective, with definitions varying according to person and culture.  Magick is not evil nor is it good as that remains in the mind of the practitioner; its results can be everything, for every form of magick can be used to heal just as it can be used to harm. The learned occultist understands that deadly poison on the right amount becomes medicine.

No true examination of the elusive nature of darkness would be complete without differentiating between archetype and entity. Most spiritual and religious cultures have developed archetypal systems to channel magickal thought, project intent and direct prayer, frequently related to a psychological and magickal construct tied to symbolism or a strong ideal but sometimes veiled beneath the banner of an entity that is merely conceptual and of talismanic quality but not representative of an expression of deity. In history we can find the names of Lucifer, Satan, Lilith, Jesus and countless others that convey and represent a philosophical idea manifested as archetype through collective consciousness. Such archetypal forces can be consciously explored in ritual and worked with in prayer but it remains important for the initiate to understand that these spiritual constructs are not real entities, or in other words, they are not divine beings or bearers of the living flame that we describe as soul.

Being a creation of the human mind and its unlimited potential for religious imagination, the many names worshipped throughout history differ from those found within the Ancient Egyptian pantheon, developed not from the roots of archetype but unveiled by the untold mysteries of divine infinity. There is power and inspiration to be harnessed in archetype but the enlightened seeker understands how such forces operate and manifest, often driven and empowered by the condensed energies, religious focus and committed faith established within those archetypes across the centuries - a power that can be bound, manipulated and explored by magickal will but not the spiritual manifestation of a superior consciousness that can be genuinely interacted with.

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Post by Jonathan 01.02.23 7:41

I guess I wanted to ask you all this before but given that you shared the exact quote now that makes it the perfect timing. What are your thoughts on how Primordial Dragon very clearly honors Lilith, through Heiðr as the Dragon Head of Fire, but also plainly named as Lilith, despite the aforementioned quote from the Asetian Bible?
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Post by TrillaCruile 01.02.23 9:08

Jonathan wrote:I guess I wanted to ask you all this before but given that you shared the exact quote now that makes it the perfect timing. What are your thoughts on how Primordial Dragon very clearly honors Lilith, through Heiðr as the Dragon Head of Fire, but also plainly named as Lilith, despite the aforementioned quote from the Asetian Bible?
The Primordial Dragon Website addresses the topic well:
The Primoridial Dragon Website wrote:Being particularly discernible in the so often misunderstood daemonic figures of Lilith and Naamah, the mother of abominations and ruling queen of Sitra Achra is a power frequently abused, exploited and misrepresented in contemporary esoterica but of great importance within the Path of the Dragon. Through a sterile approach to mysticism and magic, perpetuated by uneducated attempts to sanitize and censor witchcraft to make it more palatable, tame and safe to a wider audience of no skill and merit, modern examinations of Lilith vehemently remove all of the adamantly dangerous, immoral and uncomfortable sides that make this Serpent force such a potent entity of communion not to be approached lightly. This often results in the widespread of teachings that bear no genuine fruit and a frail approach that has no place in this tradition.

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Post by Victor 01.02.23 11:20

Jonathan wrote:I guess I wanted to ask you all this before but given that you shared the exact quote now that makes it the perfect timing. What are your thoughts on how Primordial Dragon very clearly honors Lilith, through Heiðr as the Dragon Head of Fire, but also plainly named as Lilith, despite the aforementioned quote from the Asetian Bible?

The Asetian Bible and the Violet Throne, like with many of Master Luis Marques’ teachings, dare to provide important clues into the mysteries by hiding them in plain sight, sometimes paired among initiatory trappings for the unaware. This has been openly explained in the contents from the very early editions of these esoteric texts, which makes them incredibly complex of profound study even at points where the language is apparently simple. A signature of Marques’ cryptic teaching methods.

I think the most important reference of note concerning this is how the Lilith embraced and celebrated through the Tradition of the Primordial Dragon is not the same Lilith that you find in modern cults through Satanism and Luciferianism or other similar paths, which have a fundamentally flawed understanding of primordial Lilith. The Lilith of Primordial Dragon, embodied through Heiðr, is the primal force of abomination and the fountain of forbidden magic. She is literally the Sacred Cave of the mysteries and the grand initiatrix of fire sorcery, sexual magic and primordial gnosis. The ruling queen of the Tree of Death (Sitra Achra). That is profoundly different from how New Age subcultures perceive and sanitize Lilith, as all those people would get obliterated at soul level by coming even close to such colossal power.
It’s not randomly for no reason or due to elitism that these forces are safeguarded behind many locks of initiation, and will remain so, but because most occultists of our time are plainly not ready to tap into them and would have their unstable egos shattered to pieces in ways that are extremely dangerous. The spiritual consequences of this tradition are permanent and this can’t be understated.

So while Lilith the Abomination is of vital devotion to devotees of the Primordial Dragon, and through such current intimately tied to Asetians and the culture of Asetianism (see the Seven Scorpions of Aset and the flaming sword of Serket as gnostic cues to such abominating powers), the Lilith of popular culture and superficial occultism remains irrelevant to this sorcery as those are two very different things: one is a primordial being beyond the abyss, the other is an esoteric archetype filtered by human cultural understanding and tied to a myriad of divergent egregores. Confusing both things would be a most grievous mistake.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth 01.02.23 12:00

Jonathan wrote:I guess I wanted to ask you all this before but given that you shared the exact quote now that makes it the perfect timing. What are your thoughts on how Primordial Dragon very clearly honors Lilith, through Heiðr as the Dragon Head of Fire, but also plainly named as Lilith, despite the aforementioned quote from the Asetian Bible?

Concealed meaning in the discourse of archetype as not a fully, though somewhat apparently, denied reality but so only veiled?  

People have wondered about this before as the reality of Lilith did indeed seem to be within some people's veritable gnosis - experienced practitioners that is.

One thing can "exist", while also "not existing", as "existence" and "non-existence" (in semantic - particularly occult (!) - terms) may be defined relative to contextual terms, bound by subject and its precise definition. So, while one thing is talked about under one light, and may appear implicitly denied under another, that doesn't necessarily have to be so. Kind of like piercing the veil of initiatory secrets and occult truths, just like the idea that an esoteric symbol may do both reveal and conceal simultaneously, depending on the initiation and knowledge of - as well as - who observes or studies it.

(You're clearly more experienced than me and know this way more than I do, with added detail and depth, however I wanted to give some thoughts to your question; and this I had written before I saw Victor's reply - I take his words with far more weight of course and they likely answer the question in a way more precise and better manner - but it speaks a bit from a different perspective, so I post it here anyways as a mere, hopefully, though very abstract, complementary thought.)
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RHP/LHP: What’s the Difference? Empty Re: RHP/LHP: What’s the Difference?

Post by Jonathan 02.02.23 7:33

Victor wrote:
Jonathan wrote:I guess I wanted to ask you all this before but given that you shared the exact quote now that makes it the perfect timing. What are your thoughts on how Primordial Dragon very clearly honors Lilith, through Heiðr as the Dragon Head of Fire, but also plainly named as Lilith, despite the aforementioned quote from the Asetian Bible?

The Asetian Bible and the Violet Throne, like with many of Master Luis Marques’ teachings, dare to provide important clues into the mysteries by hiding them in plain sight, sometimes paired among initiatory trappings for the unaware. This has been openly explained in the contents from the very early editions of these esoteric texts, which makes them incredibly complex of profound study even at points where the language is apparently simple. A signature of Marques’ cryptic teaching methods.

I think the most important reference of note concerning this is how the Lilith embraced and celebrated through the Tradition of the Primordial Dragon is not the same Lilith that you find in modern cults through Satanism and Luciferianism or other similar paths, which have a fundamentally flawed understanding of primordial Lilith. The Lilith of Primordial Dragon, embodied through Heiðr, is the primal force of abomination and the fountain of forbidden magic. She is literally the Sacred Cave of the mysteries and the grand initiatrix of fire sorcery, sexual magic and primordial gnosis. The ruling queen of the Tree of Death (Sitra Achra). That is profoundly different from how New Age subcultures perceive and sanitize Lilith, as all those people would get obliterated at soul level by coming even close to such colossal power.
It’s not randomly for no reason or due to elitism that these forces are safeguarded behind many locks of initiation, and will remain so, but because most occultists of our time are plainly not ready to tap into them and would have their unstable egos shattered to pieces in ways that are extremely dangerous. The spiritual consequences of this tradition are permanent and this can’t be understated.

So while Lilith the Abomination is of vital devotion to devotees of the Primordial Dragon, and through such current intimately tied to Asetians and the culture of Asetianism (see the Seven Scorpions of Aset and the flaming sword of Serket as gnostic cues to such abominating powers), the Lilith of popular culture and superficial occultism remains irrelevant to this sorcery as those are two very different things: one is a primordial being beyond the abyss, the other is an esoteric archetype filtered by human cultural understanding and tied to a myriad of divergent egregores. Confusing both things would be a most grievous mistake.

Thank you for such an excellent reply. I had a feeling you would.
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RHP/LHP: What’s the Difference? Empty Re: RHP/LHP: What’s the Difference?

Post by Nightshade 03.02.23 9:03

Victor wrote:
Jonathan wrote:I guess I wanted to ask you all this before but given that you shared the exact quote now that makes it the perfect timing. What are your thoughts on how Primordial Dragon very clearly honors Lilith, through Heiðr as the Dragon Head of Fire, but also plainly named as Lilith, despite the aforementioned quote from the Asetian Bible?

The Asetian Bible and the Violet Throne, like with many of Master Luis Marques’ teachings, dare to provide important clues into the mysteries by hiding them in plain sight, sometimes paired among initiatory trappings for the unaware. This has been openly explained in the contents from the very early editions of these esoteric texts, which makes them incredibly complex of profound study even at points where the language is apparently simple. A signature of Marques’ cryptic teaching methods.

I think the most important reference of note concerning this is how the Lilith embraced and celebrated through the Tradition of the Primordial Dragon is not the same Lilith that you find in modern cults through Satanism and Luciferianism or other similar paths, which have a fundamentally flawed understanding of primordial Lilith. The Lilith of Primordial Dragon, embodied through Heiðr, is the primal force of abomination and the fountain of forbidden magic. She is literally the Sacred Cave of the mysteries and the grand initiatrix of fire sorcery, sexual magic and primordial gnosis. The ruling queen of the Tree of Death (Sitra Achra). That is profoundly different from how New Age subcultures perceive and sanitize Lilith, as all those people would get obliterated at soul level by coming even close to such colossal power.
It’s not randomly for no reason or due to elitism that these forces are safeguarded behind many locks of initiation, and will remain so, but because most occultists of our time are plainly not ready to tap into them and would have their unstable egos shattered to pieces in ways that are extremely dangerous. The spiritual consequences of this tradition are permanent and this can’t be understated.

So while Lilith the Abomination is of vital devotion to devotees of the Primordial Dragon, and through such current intimately tied to Asetians and the culture of Asetianism (see the Seven Scorpions of Aset and the flaming sword of Serket as gnostic cues to such abominating powers), the Lilith of popular culture and superficial occultism remains irrelevant to this sorcery as those are two very different things: one is a primordial being beyond the abyss, the other is an esoteric archetype filtered by human cultural understanding and tied to a myriad of divergent egregores. Confusing both things would be a most grievous mistake.

This is information of extreme importance in my humble opinion. Particularly concerning the egregores and aspects that people commonly interact deceitfully and delusionally, such as the misguided ideas of possession. Primordial gods don't really possess humans, that's a common misconception. Anyone with knowledge and experience of magical anatomy would tell you that if a primordial entity would enter you in possession you would die on the spot. Our human bodies can't handle so much power and energy. It would be devastating no matter how powerful one is. This is why I never suggest for initiates to mix new traditions with something as raw, untamed and pure as the culture and current of the Primordial Dragon.
There are countless systems and approaches out there that will put you into contact with entities that are base egregores with no true pathway of real theurgical communion. It's really prevalent in modern occultism and new age paths, but delusion and ego are very dangerous to something like the Primordial Dragon Tradition. So make sure to avoid all the trappings and pitfalls of traditions that funnel your powers into an egregore and chain you into delusion and servitude as opposed to genuine contact. The differences in results and experiences are very clear to those more educated with sorcery in the real world, far away from the internet and the online realities of modern occultism. Discard new age "teachings" based on role-playing games, suggestion magicks, distorted egos, alien invasions, atlantean fictions, lovecraftian spinoffs and basic wiccas. Such forces have no living and breathing current of their own and hold absolutely no power to abyssal traditions such as the Primordial Dragon. This sorcery is not for everyone, not for the masses, not the many, but for the few that have the living flame flowing through their blood.

So what Victor said doesn't apply solely to Lilith. It applies in the very same way to most other Gods and Goddesses of Witchcraft, particularly the Primordial Ones. The powers of the abyss are not for the faint hearted and the ancient Dragons predate all histories of this world.
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Post by Jonathan 03.02.23 16:37

Long time no see Lady Nightshade! Good to see you with such valuable contributions.
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