A Discussion Pertaining to the Misknown Flame: Wrath

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Post by Tehom on 14.08.20 1:20

Em Hotep.

This is a form of Gnosis I have received of introspection and exterior contemplation in tandem.

As per the cliche, I am ever-cautious not about those who brag of their battles and the ire wrought of their many victories, but those who either, in their quietude, stare a storm of epic proportions out into absolute nothingness, or express one in their silent, unrelenting Wrath.

The present-day Humanised concept of Wrath is an insulting misnomer for a force that disrupts titans in its wake. It is quite possibly the only force to ever strike what I interpret to be primordial fear in me from its nature alone. I am personally disgusted at just how little respect there is for this topic in most communities. It is one of the most powerful forces of which this world has ever been made Aware. It has consumed all Gods and their creations alike, nothing in all of Time has been excluded from it. It is a momentous responsibility all sign up for and few are capable to comprehend the reality of.

It fascinates me that this is a force that Human Beings were ever trusted to possess.

It is one of the purest manifestations of Flame in the subtle body that exists, capable of turning the wielder to ash as effortlessly as smoke finds the wind, making the liminal forms of Anger or Rage appear as incorporeal imitations by comparison. It is what led First Murderer Qayin to slay Abel per Genesis, what led to the Makot Mitzrayim - the Ten Plagues of Egypt per Exodus. It is the cause of many Mundane and transcendental Wars alike, permeating throughout time as Something that has no Need for it. It is the Violent ear-splitting Hiss of the Nachash in this same context, and the unending deathly discovery Aset commands to fell her Enemies. It is a bloodthirsty God living in the hearts of all Warriors, demanding sacrifice whenever the Enemy is near. There are indeed not many that know to address these requests in serious custom; as to bury wrath aneath false promises of inner-peace guarantees only their own destruction.

I was angry with my friend;
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

For the Warrior, It must be promised manifestation, or it will Burn regardless of your intent. And yet awarding Power to it over You invites decay. In its fiery fury, the most powerful Wizard can find absolute reduction to weightless essence. True Surrender, the sacrifice of Ego for the Knowledge and Guidance of the Inner Dragon, and the Acceptance of this continuum is merely the first step in the long, tiresome staircase of ascension toward the magnitude of this Great Thing. For the impure and self-gratifying are met with dragonfire...

Surrender is the unspoken language of inner liberation, an ancient art of storm and perfume ignited through the sacrificial flame of our inner dragon upon the trine altar of realized truth. ☥



... capable of eliminating Friend and Foe alike, indiscriminately. The impact such leaves on the Source when in uncontrolled form is devastating to all states of the Ba. And the Mind is in many ways entirely unhinged if only temporarily by the sheer shockwave of this Energy, rendering said Person Without Themselves.

Many are subconsciously so terrified of this force that they actively design conflict-avoidant paths borne out of the sole desire to avoid it at all costs.

I would even argue to give themselves the illusion of Power over it.

To truly Wield this Force is to be as Sekhmet's Wrathful Manifestation: unspeakable, unmistakable, unshakeable -- Terror.

And yet so few, especially in Occultism, ever stop to talk about it. There is so much "talk" of Power and Evil in most circles, and the responsibilities of managing both therein; and yet so little in regards to the far more prevalent dangers of Wrath's consumption of Self. Perhaps this is because so few have ever been successful in their attempts to Wield this prime manifestation of chaotic influence, and much to their benefit. For of course, in the few instances we do see Wrath made manifest in the hands of the non-initiated, it is a quick affair to a brutal, bloody end. Even incarnate Masters struggle to come to terms with this force, and as one grows in prowess the need to be-ever vigilant only ever increases... easily interpreted as a Curse more than a gift.

This is the first topic I have started Here that, at Core, I actually do not at all enjoy talking about at this time, being disruptive to my inner Balance.


I nonetheless anticipate your Views and Thoughts on this topic.
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Post by Nightshade on 14.08.20 4:02

Good text. Was this channeled?
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Post by Glasswalker on 14.08.20 4:18

Greetings, Tehom

I appreciate your inclusion of Blake's prose, A Poison Tree.

Individually I am in agreement with the majority of your views on the topic at hand. Especially regarding humanity's tendency to minimize, or even in some cases infantilize, most concepts or forces at play in our universe. Symbolism is a hard habit to break for the human mind. Many would rather deal explicitly in symbols rather than interact with the real deal. It's easier that way, I suppose, for many. The symbol is easier to idolize and fantasize with. It's safer.

Tehom wrote:... capable of eliminating Friend and Foe alike, indiscriminately.

The sound of a struck cord resonates outward from this. Yet I find that it is effortless for many to not consider the repercussions for interacting with such destructive forces. I guess that just goes back to people's tendency to engage with symbols rather than reality. No consequences there...

The thought shape of "Wrath" has always been distinctly orange for me. Much like magma which bleeds from the world's heart. Slow. Intentional. And Silent. I'm curious if others have similar impressions. In both past and present that thought shape has not altered. The sound of a jaw shutting suddenly. Fixed and forceful. Bone rushing against itself. A stillness between. The type of thing that steals your breath.
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Post by Ramla-Meryt on 14.08.20 7:49

I quite agree.

As much as it is a quote from popular culture, the poem below had always struck a cord with me before I began seriously engaging with Asetianism and with the occult in general:

Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war

Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war

It speaks of someone whose last limit has finally been reached. Of someone who knows they have the potential for terrible depths and is finally pushed to that edge, who acts to destroy to act against an enemy that in turn destroys friend as well as foe. The wider episode is based around someone who acts as a pacifist due to past acts who is finally forced into building an army to protect others. Wrath in essence -- magma burns regardless of who it is encountered by, even if the trigger for the eruption is singular and focused.

I find it deeply poetic of the potential of Wrath to be destruction on a wider scale, knowing the implications of the episode and backstory. Pop culture or not, looking back on it, it is a not a poor vehicle for thoughts on the subject. I also don't doubt that there are older poems that touch upon similar. This is merely how I first clearly recall engaging with the subject.

Regarding what Glasswalker said -
Especially regarding humanity's tendency to minimize, or even in some cases infantilize, most concepts or forces at play in our universe.
- I think that people do tend to mimimise things a lot. So often have I see people claiming to hate something where my response is "Do you really?" It is such a loaded word and so often misused. There are a whole spectrum of emotional variations before you get to hate and then on to wrath itself.
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Post by Tehom on 14.08.20 13:36

[quote="Ramla-Meryt"]I quite agree.

As much as it is a quote from popular culture, the poem below had always struck a cord with me before I began seriously engaging with Asetianism and with the occult in general:

Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war

Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war

Ramla, I enjoy the quote you've shared here. It speaks for much that I intended to share. I will note this and keep it in mind, thank you. Also in regards to the immaturity toward Hate, there are words beyond Me. Again a product of the ignorance is the carefree attitude to Use such powerful terms and symbols outside of their correct context, whereby those who embrace it openly invite such here disrespected Magick into their lives unknowingly, crafting their own tombs from ill-will. A Silent tragedy, that these people are so wary oftentimes of the Occult and Dark implications, and yet use some of these most-shadowed forms in their lesser interactions. A waste, and to waste themselves. This much has been taught by the Tibetan Schools , and much of Buddha's way , where we find that true Peace is Inward—the state of Understanding and Mastery of Selfhood over the petty inquiries of the Ego, to be comprehended entirely exterior to an Egotistical frame of Mind. It does not at all imply the lack of conflict, but the regulation of intent towards it. And so then comes the knowing of why "World Peace" is another less-understood reality so far from us ...
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Post by Tehom on 14.08.20 14:14

Alas, this topic is meant for the discussion of Wrath's essence, something far beyond the intentions of most incarnate, and so I will not derail into my own condemnation of Others for their antics in relation to it too much. To that end, That will be as much as I Will say here.

I am interested in your Perception here, Glasswalker. The symbolism you here ascribe to Wrath is reminiscent of a slow-consuming Fire, the terrible magma that wakes from the Volcano and desecrates what lies ahead. It is merciless and at pace. I find This is the greatest commonality in all perceptions of Wrath. In extremes I have felt Wrath as a choking, Ancient fiery cloud, "blackness" only in that Colour is so far removed of its Place that this is the only Way in which it may be interpreted. At peak it writhes with indomitable fury with epic cracks of Crimson lightning and radiating Danger, Ka made Pure Spiritual Hatred, vaporising the living like blood and flesh turned to ash by a nuclear blast. Emanating an aura that swallows the near and contorts even their Vibration like the Event Horizon of a Black Hole, illuminating the darkest shade with fearful splendour. I Could here describe further, but it proves troublesome.


Nightshade, it was.

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Post by Glasswalker on 14.08.20 16:56

Tehom wrote: I am interested in your Perception here, Glasswalker. The symbolism you here ascribe to Wrath is reminiscent of a slow-consuming Fire, the terrible magma that wakes from the Volcano and desecrates what lies ahead. It is merciless and at pace. I find This is the greatest commonality in all perceptions of Wrath. In extremes I have felt Wrath as a choking, Ancient fiery cloud, "blackness" only in that Colour is so far removed of its Place that this is the only Way in which it may be interpreted. At peak it writhes with indomitable fury with epic cracks of Crimson lightning and radiating Danger, Ka made Pure Spiritual Hatred, vaporising the living like blood and flesh turned to ash by a nuclear blast. Emanating an aura that swallows the near and contorts even their Vibration like the Event Horizon of a Black Hole, illuminating the darkest shade with fearful splendour.  I Could here describe further, but it proves troublesome.

I often find that, although perceived as being such, Wrath is not often manifested in extremes. In my individual experience, in its truest form, it sits as a sea beneath a sea. A pressure under the skin. Silent and mindful. Which is usually in direct contrast to many preconceptions about its nature. Multifaceted. In this way, the silent Wrath (I find) is the most destructive. There is no thundering roar before the collapse. Merely, a collapse.
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Post by Tehom on 14.08.20 18:09

Glasswalker wrote:

I often find that, although perceived as being such, Wrath is not often manifested in extremes. In my individual experience, in its truest form, it sits as a sea beneath a sea. A pressure under the skin. Silent and mindful. Which is usually in direct contrast to many preconceptions about its nature. Multifaceted. In this way, the silent Wrath (I find) is the most destructive. There is no thundering roar before the collapse. Merely, a collapse.



The watchful anticipation you put to imagery is an Excellent point toward our goal of better definition , as it might be more simply understood as the comparative "calm" preceding the Storm, by those unable to comprehend the full portrait, I would Say.
It is apparent not all Hear those deafening moments of absence as partisan to the Storm itself.

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Post by Glasswalker on 14.08.20 19:15

Tehom wrote:The watchful anticipation you put to imagery is an Excellent point toward our goal of better definition , as it might be more simply understood as the comparative "calm" preceding the Storm, by those unable to comprehend the full portrait, I would Say.
It is apparent not all Hear those deafening moments of absence as partisan to the Storm itself.

This absence may be what instills fear in those who have the misfortune of being subject to its influence. Humanity, and subsequently their manner of thinking, primarily revolves around control. Control of the natural world, control of their environment, control of those around them, and control of themselves. Typically failing, spectacularly I might add, at the latter.

I feel that the silence of Wrath gives people little to anticipate. There is no warning, no way of making or measuring one's defenses. Eliciting a raw, primal fear in the still-animal mind. No control. This is why I consider the Silent Wrath to be the most destructive. I would not call it malicious, as that would be to impart unfair preconceptions upon its unprincipled nature, but it certainly may be seen as such by those who are in ill favor. Just that it can typically come and go like the strike of lightning. This may yet be what drives many to symbolize and diminish its nature. To forcefully alter their preconceived notions in order to feel safer. To think they'd see it coming. To think it is something they can control.
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Post by Maxx on 14.08.20 20:50

I am enjoying watching this conversation and it is very enlightening to see how very educated people view what is going on all around us.  I would request both of you (actually 3) continue so I can watch and consider some of these points.  I believe I have something to add to this based on my view over the years as to the meaning of some of the points you both are bringing up and I would like to add somewhat of a different thought meaning or reasoning into this discussion in the future. Offered only for consideration to your already presented thought and then ask what your opinion of it would be. Thanks to both (really all three) of you.
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Post by Tehom on 15.08.20 15:08

I'll return to this in just a bit. You are absolutely free to contribute, Maxx. The goal is knowledge, after all.
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Post by Tehom on 15.08.20 17:52

I agree with nearmost all of that assessment, at least in what it goes toward. My Focus holds the objectivity of Wrath as a concept both outside of and in relation to the subjectivity of those who inherit it's permanence. In regards to the latter, I think that the requirement for control ties into my P.O.V on the illusion of power; in the way certain schools avoid Wrath as a means to "possess" it superficially. So I Will lead with that context to wrap up this section of our talk, as I don't want to restrain the longevity of our topic to meagre naysayings or direct it into murmuring primarily about how we view Humanity.


I better established my take on this in another post to Maxx that concerned the misuse of Ignorance, but the same principle applies. This is where we may tangibly diverge and things may become a tad more interesting, for I believe its sphere of influence and Man's take on Wrath are not exclusive. Should this evolve further, we can create a new topic. I Understand Ego to be the core of "Why" to what you and I both put forward, here, though I understand said Ego to be resultant of Willed stagnation.

Not the greatest example, and probably diving many feet too deep here, but . . .
Let's assume there is a world where there are cars by default.
A car arrives to take John to high-school, John would rather go joyriding. The class was about auto-mechanics, and theoretical observations on the way engines work. John was aware. John learns about automobiles by driving and maintaining the seized car. John decides High-school is useless, and mostly invalid. Little did John know that in that class was Henry Ford Jr. Henry Ford learned the philosophy and intense requirements of car-making, and applied the complexities to his way of thinking about cars and the roads they travel on, the reasons the cars are there at all. John claims Henry is a pseudo-car enthusiast, that his entire frame of work is unsound and that his is far superior and based in observable reality (his own). John now has an Ego. Why? because he assumed journey the car would take him on was useless in the grand scheme. The great irony. Willed stagnation. What happens as a result? Ignorance. The first state of Ignorance (Natural, not knowing where the journey would lead) was useful, the latter existing of Ego.

In my mind this also occurs with situations as the one you presented, with Man's need of Control. I would say John wanted the image of Control over where he was going, and the idea of not having it terrifies him. The image contextually serves as the illusion of power; he is able to keep it away therefore he holds Power over it. Wrath though is not something that one can possess any form of control over, even illusionary, indefinitely—for the true Reality will shatter forth from the Self Unannounced. It demands vigilance from Master and Initiate, and Uninitiated, alike.


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Post by Tehom on 15.08.20 17:57

Therefore existing far beyond the means, constraints and ideals of Humankind. Total Permanence.
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Post by Tehom on 15.08.20 18:12

To approach progressively, let's, following this, slowly move toward the Occult Nature of Wrath and what is suggestible of it's Purpose with Higher Entities. i.e, do we believe that Wrath is the most harsh of schools this Universe has to offer ? Or do we believe that the Greater Divine are the true wielders of this (when mastered) Power, giving us the illusion of their equal susceptibility for the purpose of Awakening us to Higher Gnosis of Self? Do note these exist as just examples.
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Post by Glasswalker on 15.08.20 22:12

You've presented a lot here, Tehom. Thank you.

Although perhaps a slight abstraction, I'm curious how you define Ego. While of course a common topic in occult circles, it also has separate interpretations in other schools. Namely, my understanding of Ego is shamanic in nature. As that is what I was trained under, and how I also approach the concept. I'll provide a brief overview of my own understanding (so that perhaps we can create a mutual understanding and use case).

In the shamanic understanding of Ego, it is often called the "shadow self", though people outside the path tend to take this a little too literally. It is not meant to represent a literal second self, but rather it is the other side of everything you think and feel in this world. There is always a way to use our emotions and intent negatively. Even those not necessarily thought of as negative (such as Love). Ego, in our view, is a teacher and not inherently obstructive, although if left completely uncontrolled it can encourage destructive behaviors in an individual. The goal in the shamanic path is to spend time with Ego, the shadow self, and to work towards immersing yourself in those negative feelings so that you can learn to live with them. Not necessarily to control, but more so to gain an understanding so that it cannot rule you. In this sense, one can never be free of Ego. So it is better to know it like a brother so that it cannot influence you. I see a lot of talk of "Ego death" in occult circles (not here), but under the shamanic tradition this is an impossibility. You would have to not be living in order to be free of it.

You did briefly mention the way you see Ego with this statement,

Tehom wrote:though I understand said Ego to be resultant of Willed stagnation.

but I would very much like to hear you elaborate on this subject, if you felt alright doing so of course. I feel it is important to make this kind of distinction so that everyone involved knows where the other is coming from. Ego is quite the abstract and it has many different use cases.

Following that line of thought, I don't necessarily believe Ego could prevent someone from, let's say, interacting with powerful forces (such as Wrath). More so that it might encourage the individual to let that force consume them from the inside out, because they are weakened by Ego. It also, of course, hinders them in many cases. It really depends on the manifestation of that Ego, and what emotion, exactly, it is manifesting from. It certainly, as you said, can encourage the latter type of ignorance.

I would also be curious if you could describe your use of "Higher Entities" and the "Greater Divine". You of course gave them as examples, but I'm basically incapable of not pushing things further haha...

I could easily conclude that you, of course, mean deities of various sorts local to here (the world soul), but even those waters are muddy from particular lights. Power is exceptionally relative to each individual, and an arguably weak person may view another person as a god, even though they are not on the level of some of the gods that are discussed regularly on the forum. And even those gods are subject to the "there's always a bigger fish" nature of this universe, as it is infinite. Infinite space and infinite time does indeed allow for perpetual growth under the correct circumstances. What we consider to be relatively powerful here will, of course, be inevitably dwarfed by something which may yet already exist. Just not in our quiet little neighborhood of the cosmos.

Individually I think this is relevant to discuss because it creates a potential dichotomy between forces such as Wrath and the aforementioned Divine. At least one that I am inclined to consider the existence of. Wrath itself, and other such related forces, seem more of a byproduct of the conscious mind in my opinion. I would not consider the universe itself to be wrathful, but I could see both a regular human, a nonhuman being, and a god local to the world soul being wrathful. How they handle this subsequent experience will of course be different relative to both their understanding of Ego and their mode of being.

By mode of being, I mean the way in which they experience reality. The interpersonal experience of the framework they inhabit. Humans are subject to a human mode. A hyena (one of the most socially intelligent mammals outside of primates, proven to be capable of wrathful and egotistical behaviors) is subject to their own mode. And of course, a nonphysical entity is subject to a different mode.

I suppose by following this line of thought, I would propose that no one entity can be the true wielder of Wrath. Or any similar force. And even, perhaps, it may never be mastered. Rather that some may handle it better given their mode of being (their inherent framework). In our relative position, other beings considered "Divine" might handle it better, but how must it look to them when they are looking at something bigger? It's a long winded way of saying, I suppose, that these forces are likely all relative. Wrath, as a concept, exists as a Hyperobject in this sense. A philosophical construct which cannot be viewed in full by any one individual mind. Rather, the individual experiences a fraction of it in their local environment. This will be true of all beings, unless they exist outside the universe itself. A highly improbable outcome.

Individually I am not one to engage with the abstract concept of purpose, so I will leave such discourse to others who do.

I might have diverted slightly from the intended course, but hopefully this provides something which was desired.
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Post by Tehom on 16.08.20 12:06

Glasswalker wrote:You've presented a lot here, Tehom. Thank you.

Although perhaps a slight abstraction, I'm curious how you define Ego. While of course a common topic in occult circles, it also has separate interpretations in other schools. Namely, my understanding of Ego is shamanic in nature. As that is what I was trained under, and how I also approach the concept. I'll provide a brief overview of my own understanding (so that perhaps we can create a mutual understanding and use case).


Welcome again, Glasswalker. My thanks for your continued Respect toward our objective and my own privacy, Here.

I must take a Moment to carefully meditate on the extents of what you have said, but I Feel that I can address my attitude toward Ego at this time.


On Ego,


I discover of myself that I best define Ego as the Selfless Authority - being the right of way established by the Jungian "shadow-aspect" Here in this realm.

It of course manifests elsewhere and is an inherent Part to our Being. It is the side that normally first reacts to what is assumed and gathered of what is first presented, and Individually determines conclusion by what It has interpreted.

It is decisively unaware of the influence stemming from other aspects of the Self.

It does not, without training, seek inner mysteries; neither it of it's wont to do so, and serves as the first torch to navigate the physical Mind through the incarnate world.

It encapsulates the result of ignored and met desires, the unsaid and said Things, the dreamt, the disrespect and respects awarded to Self.

It is necessary to a stable existence.

In this way it is supremely Self-Important. The Ego, from my view, is easily encouraged -- much like the excitable child -- and susceptible to all manner of suggestion.

It relies on the Wisdom of the Self in the way the child relies on the parent for correct guidance. And so Is the importance of Spirituality as a universal concept.

In trying to ascertain true spiritual Gnosis as in the case of past-life regression, it is imperative that it is taken seriously, and understood as it Is unique to that individual.

To overly restrain or exclude it is to Deny your Self of Who "You" Are, which only then leads to becoming whoever Anyone says that you Are, inheriting a Selfless and finally, Egoic being.

This is the only subjective "Ego-death" I would consider possible.


It may have been more apt of me to establish that people allow themselves the latter superficial state of Ignorance as a consequence of being "Egoic Beings", than to say that Ego was the cause, as it creates confusion. So I will put this to Mind henceforth.

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Post by Naoom on 16.08.20 12:54

This is a very good thread and topic. Great contributions by everyone. It makes me think of the Dark Flame discussed of in the Asetian works. I think it ties deeply into this, and shows a different form of Wrath than the one most people commonly think of.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 16.08.20 14:53

There are good insights in this thread (and a very good original thread in and of itself, that I must commend you for, Tehom), very unique and original in their sentiments and philosophical expressions of thought which add for a great discussion that is uncommon on the internet nowadays, so it is my personal hope to see a lot more of this and this I feel is what this forum is really meant for anyways. I'd hope we can all combine our wise heads and manifest more of this. Smile

Regarding "Wrath" I shall say this: I've felt its force in the distant past and I believe that at the actions of those bound by ignorance and even an apparently persisting willingness to perpetuate it through ignoble deeds of highly unrighteous or even greatly dishonorable proportions may warrant the stricken blow coming at them from Wrath but only after being given several chances already; or, it having a dynamics that is similar in kind to that and actually more like a punishing force in order to sustain universal balance but not issued by some monotheistic god as we have it pictured to ourselves in an anthropomorphically viewed way of Abrahamitic religions, which might be their conception in general, so rather through the instrumentalities like that of an entity - person or group - having been terribly wronged and this can take different expressions and levels of proportion like that of military and political actions in the case of countries in self-defence or even magickal actions of individuals that experience such a flame of Wrath due to different possible alternatives of given reason. At that time when I did experience this force, however, I did indeed perceive it as an orange colored force, like Glasswalker mentioned, of volcanic eruption or magma like burning intensity.

More thoughts might come to me later. Sorry for not having so much to add, more than this. I'd have a lot more to write if it weren't for the subject, whilst interesting, to me personally having very unfortunate, dark and to me deeply regretted experiences in my own life associated with it, where the unleashing of Wrath caused me only subsequently very great sorrows, but never through physical violence or any illegal means. However I do believe certain experiences are inescapable in a way as lodged seeds deeply within Self of unlived realities yet to come where each soul has to pass through different thresholds of experience as a form of universal initiation but that must be conquered with honor, truth and wisdom in balanced maturity and careful responsibility as everything cannot be warded off from within and everything cannot be repressed forever. But this is just my own view and experience through life, and I reckon things CAN be helped in other ways than having to tread down an unfortunate path but sometimes the odds are nearly impossible from within and the only way out might seem to be, very unfortunately, through learning the very hard way, if no other aid is presently available, or such is the sad tale from the unleashing of forces that are not yet tamed within Self but only after the great eruption of lava from an otherwise sealed volcano... uncontrollable as the forces of nature themselves. It is better to prepare in advance, always striving towards balance and self-mastery in order to ensure such horrific deeds can be preempted but sometimes they are unavoidable unless one can see the full panorama of future, as things might shift and turn behind every corner of life. Of course here nothing criminal is advocated at all, as such should never be condoned, but more along the lines of what was mentioned above with the poem of "when a good man goes to war".

However, also from what I have mentioned here in this long paragraph above, this reminds me of what Luis Marques teaches about two things, namely (1) the acceptance of impermanence and (2) that falling, for the initiate, or anyone in life really, is unavoidable but that how we choose to rise above it is what determines success or failure. I believe that's a beautiful and profound teaching that echoes also very well with Buddhist or other Eastern teachings, at least as pertaints to the teaching on the nature of impermanence as taught by Shakyamuni or Gautama Buddha.

Hope this reply can be of some use. Cheers! Smile
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 16.08.20 15:35

MysticLightShinethForth wrote: ...or, it having a dynamics that is similar in kind to that and actually more like a punishing force in order to sustain universal balance but not issued by some monotheistic god as we have it pictured to ourselves in an anthropomorphically viewed way of Abrahamitic religions, which might be their conception in general, so rather through the instrumentalities like that of an entity - person or group - having been terribly wronged and this can take different expressions and levels of proportion like that of military and political actions in the case of countries in self-defence or even magickal actions of individuals that experience such a flame of Wrath due to different possible alternatives of given reason.

What I meant about the punishing factor wasn't at all meant in a super-ego kind of way, however, so not in the way of an authoritative figure of some monotheistic god issuing out punishments to people, as I said, but more like acting according to the metaphysical ranges of universal sympathy which in terms of analogy might look like pulling the strings of a lyre but then striking a very disharmonious chord so that if it has been offended in such a way, by a highly dishonorable act, it might thus awaken the power of Wrath from that disturbed inner peace and retaliate with a terrifying force if warranted and intrinsically justified against such offense. So it might strike back; the string of the lyre retaliates with a horribly discordant chord which I hold to be the only way for the opening of the portal for the mighty force of Wrath to enter into our world or to be channeled into it, namely by deeply disturbed peace, gravely broken harmony or being seriously offended by the unworthy hands of very dishonorable people.

Now I hope this idea doesn't spawn a lot of strange people like "Chaos Magicians" who will try to dishonorably offend a lot of innocent people for no reason just to under whatever strange kind of paradigm open up portals to unleash Wrath into the world, however that'd probably seem a bit counterproductive as it would only be directly aimed and targetted at themselves, haha. Razz I've heard a lot of strange things from people or gotten such impressions from some. Rolling Eyes

lol!
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Post by Glasswalker on 16.08.20 20:06

Thank you for expanding upon your view of Ego, Tehom. It has provided a lot of valuable insight.

Tehom wrote:In trying to ascertain true spiritual Gnosis as in the case of past-life regression, it is imperative that it is taken seriously, and understood as it Is unique to that individual.

To overly restrain or exclude it is to Deny your Self of Who "You" Are, which only then leads to becoming whoever Anyone says that you Are, inheriting a Selfless and finally, Egoic being.

This is the only subjective "Ego-death" I would consider possible.

It is possible to garner such a concept from this action, I suppose. Ego is inevitably tied to these experiences and it is, often times, difficult to separate it. These circumstances often involve a variety of emotions which feed Ego, and yes. It could become wildly out of control should one not strive to place it back in its intended location. Especially when dealing with human modes, past and present.

Naoom wrote:This is a very good thread and topic. Great contributions by everyone. It makes me think of the Dark Flame discussed of in the Asetian works. I think it ties deeply into this, and shows a different form of Wrath than the one most people commonly think of.

Individually, I see the Dark flame was something more positive in this circumstance. My initial observations of it find it very reminiscent of rapture states, actually, which are used in animistic work as a means of achieving journey (or a action which requires great intent). While the text didn't elude to any of this, I cannot help but acknowledge the resemblance with how Luis described it. Additionally, should that not be the case, I also found it quite reminiscent of a particular kind of blood magic, but this is the least likely outcome. I would not be one to associate it with Wrath, though there is always the possibility it could be related.

(To briefly expound upon what I mean by "blood magic" in this instance, it's a form of willfully (or even subconsciously) igniting the life energy in your pathways for intense bursts of outflow which can be  pretty devastating. Again, however, this is almost certainly not the case. I am just prone to considering all available avenues, regardless of how unlikely).

MysticLightShinethForth wrote:Now I hope this idea doesn't spawn a lot of strange people like "Chaos Magicians" who will try to dishonorably offend a lot of innocent people for no reason just to under whatever strange kind of paradigm open up portals to unleash Wrath into the world, however that'd probably seem a bit counterproductive as it would only be directly aimed and targetted at themselves, haha.

Let's certainly hope not! tongue
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 17.08.20 7:47

There's also an interesting point that we can bring up here about Wrath as seen manifested within Asetian history of the Sep Tepy. First of all, we know that the Asetians teach honor and loyalty but also such principles as justice, truth and fairness. I believe that the balance between light and darkness we find within Asetianism might stand firmly upon such values. However, even then, we have the recounted story of the Epic Wars and the unleashing of the Imperial Guard from the call of Serket by Her Highness Aset which appeared to be a very brutal, but reluctant, action on the part of Aset. Could this have been a manifestation of Wrath in a way, then from a veritable Goddess? Because we saw the devastating effect that it wrought, from that account, upon both guilty and innocents alike and hence the devastating forces of Wrath itself, which is why it can be quite reluctant to bear forth and may bring great sorrow in the end as even what know of the Aset Ka by Luis Marques, in regards to this, to them it was a kind of stain or bad mark that they felt for which they compensated by raising even higher forces of justice, protection of innocence and honor. I believe the Book of Nun mentions that if not some other part of the Asetian Bible.

I, of course, cannot begin to fathom the level of these wars or the deeper implications thereof, but we can analyze it from our own level of understanding, at the risk, however, of making it slightly "humanized"...
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Post by Tehom on 17.08.20 12:47

Continuing @Glasswalker,
With Higher Entities, I am referring directly to those incorporeal things that exist beyond the spiritual aptitude of those most-typically incarnated on Earth. I.e, Spiritual beings of number that are not best defined by having achieved Godhood, but do in their existing at all define a subcategory of which is provably to a greater vibrational State than what is found in the huge majority of beings bound by physical existence. Let us say some non-incarnated Vampiric beings, Astral demi-god figures, and exceptionally well-attuned Egregores that, as You Say, may be mistaken for Gods by arguably weaker Beings.

By Greater Divine, I of course do refer to those in the Divine Hekhalot, at the apex of the Reality Pyramid structure. I.e, Aset.


I'd like to note for your consideration, that I See we share almost all-common ground in our Understandings. The way in which we stand would be the area at odds, I think.

John Martin's "The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah" is as I choose, in lieu of better representation(s), a suitable depiction of my experience of the most-apparent Wrath, if we can picture that the one manifesting it lies at the centre of this cacophony of flame and pandemonium.

A Discussion Pertaining to the Misknown Flame: Wrath File:John_Martin_-_Sodom_and_Gomorrah


I've more to Say to this topic of Wrath, being the magickal implications, Occult Nature(s), and much thereon. So I anticipate that it Will be on-going for quite some while.

I Sincerely Thank You all for your contributions thus far. They are surely valued beyond Myself.

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Post by Jonathan on 17.08.20 14:03

This has been a great discussion so far and thank you to everyone who has participated. At this point I rather continue to observe and learn from all your observations and philosophical insight, which has been certainly of interest. Please carry on.
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Post by Glasswalker on 18.08.20 4:19

MysticLightShinethForth wrote: Could this have been a manifestation of Wrath in a way, then from a veritable Goddess? Because we saw the devastating effect that it wrought, from that account, upon both guilty and innocents alike and hence the devastating forces of Wrath itself

It would be difficult to say, though a possibility. There are many other forces/emotions which could result in a similar outcome. These other emotions could be gateways to Wrath, as well, but not all require Wrath to end in such a way. Though it is difficult to know, really. Given the nature of the recounting and the circumstances in which that information, itself, is generated. Circumstances like that is why I like to sit in the agnostic middle on many things.

Tehom, I appreciate you taking the time to expand upon your meaning there. The image referenced is indeed striking, and carries with it familiar energy that is of likeness to my own experiences. Very curious, and something I will take time to think on.
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Post by Tehom on 18.08.20 23:34

We've now discussed the effects of Wrath on the spirit and how we individually Feel those to be, but we've yet to address the subject in the context of spiritual status. There is of course a certain reverence to be had about those experiencing it at length; mayhaps in some cases even presenting that dichotomy between the Divine You before illustrated, in situations that transcend anecdotes of Divine lineage. The Old Norse bear-skin adorned berserkir are one accepted instance, those fierce emissaries of the Wrath of Odin as deeply rooted in Malkuth,— a connotation implicit in their being hamrammr or large, burly, "shapestrong-"—even seen as mortal representatives by their Norse contemporaries who culturally were without Gnosis of Kabbalah in their Germanic territory. Accepted also is their tradition of preemptive consumption of psychedelic plants i.e Amanita muscaria we might imagine were given to them by their respective Shamans in order to better attune themselves to the Odinic Current, as is found custom in their other rituals of joint-meditation. Applying themselves visually to be interpreted as his archetypes; making their bodies as they envision his Might, their borderline-psychotic heightened warring his fury, and their thunderous, indiscriminate bloodshed as the dark oblivion of his Wrath. All in all, they are designed to inspire trepidation in all ill-comers.


Let us see Úlfhéðnar . . . quot, wikipedia follows.
"...sometimes described as Odin's special warriors: "[Odin's] men went without their mailcoats and were mad as hounds or wolves, bit their shields...they slew men, but neither fire nor iron had effect upon them. This is called 'going berserk'." In addition, the helm-plate press from Torslunda depicts a scene of Odin with a berserker with a wolf pelt and a spear as distinguishing features: “a wolf skinned warrior with the apparently one-eyed dancer in the bird-horned helm, which is generally interpreted as showing a scene indicative of a relationship between berserkgang ... and the god Odin”.

Found in the etymology is the seeming confirmation we look for, where "to go Berserk" is to hamask; implying that one transform the state of Self into one of indomitable fury on the offensive, and to come upon their adversaries in this ferocious bestial valour.

As we Know, This manner of archetypal adoption not at all exclusive to the Nordic ancestral homelands, but lies far beyond and before all o'er the world, perhaps originating in the Deshret before the given timeframe of around protodynastic Naqada III. Many that read these words are well-versed in Kemetic history and so it is needless for me to expound upon this, really.


We look yonder distant as Southeastern Mexico for Ancient Maya, of which has been of particular interest to me of late in Study, to see some supreme showing of the extent this practice extends to. For here are the scarcely-known secrets of ancient Magickal Mayan traditions and rituals that pertain to much in this subject. In contrast to my want to share, is a stupendous collection of information that I doubt can be fit into just the realms of this topic, so I might make another in service to the greater good of it, if anyone would want that. But of what will be said here is of the original Kakchiquel Ah-zotzils (not to be confused with the surviving modern day Tzotzil Maya or Sotz'leb indigenous cultural group of Chiapas) that is the clandestine House of the Bat, being Camazotz (K'iche' for death-bat) of Xibalba as seen in the legend of Popol Vuh. Known for adopting his icon in totemic appraisal; this caste much akin to the other surrounding Houses of their then-common culture were known to partake in the usage of psychedelics before ritual and Human sacrifice, in this case to deem themselves the manner of Wrathful Death seen in the demon Camazotz, connecting themselves to this archetype by their ancestral guides. Though not classified as a Divine entity, this assumption of deific symbol is prevalent in most ancient cultures especially in the context of emanating Wrath that is constantly to be evidenced as a thing recognised transcendental to the capabilities of the Self, a thing that can only be fully realised in communion with these heavy archetypes and god-figures, whether for the purposes of battle or simply appeasing their wanton bloodlust. The image of the wise Shaman draped in fabrics, whom partakes in communion with ancestors and godforms, swathed in smokey haze and well-with the bubbles of cauldrons brimming with psychoactive froth that spills about him in flavourful odd colours is iconographic, an enduring remembrance reflecting one able as the Magister, One who momentarily catches what is Beyond himself that he presents it to his flock as Wisdom. One who transcends mortal bounds.
That Wrath is at all customary, let alone held in esteem, to the given narrative speaks of its importance as a historically frequented function regarded as better accustomed to the purposes of the Divine.


In theory this would support my argument of permanence, but interestingly enough also lends equal credence to yours about Humanity's desire for control of this force. I suppose even in early analysis there's much to be covered, here.
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