A Discussion Pertaining to the Misknown Flame: Wrath

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Post by Glasswalker on 19.08.20 5:11

These traditions of which you speak Tehom still exist, and I am grateful that you should bring these examples up. Many years ago I received my shamanic induction at the hand of Master Spirit Coyote and am intimately familiar with process outlined in both examples. Quite popularized in the modern world of today, the exact process behind these practices is universal, though obvious cultural and regional differences will exist in the exact manner of preparation. The force is universal under this context however.

What is described in these examples are referred to as rapture, or trance in layman's terms. While heavily popularized, many instances of the oldest forms of rapture and many modern engagements don't require substances. Rather, these states can be achieved by using the body or other natural sources to induce trance through repetition. Fire, sound, deprivation of the senses and even moving one's wrist (or another body part) rhythmically can induce these states with the proper knowledge.

In regards to the Berserkers, while perhaps favored by Odin, from what we know not only of the regional practices of shamanic and animistic individuals, the surviving information and practices in Europe and Asia teach us that this power comes from the animal spirits themselves. I will explain this process as it happens in the shamanic tradition, as it was part of my training.

It is no secret that, when engaging with spirits of the world soul, they can temporarily offer you their form, their sight, and their nature for the sake of teaching or completing a task. In shamanism this is what is known as shape shifting, but there's another form which the Berserkers themselves used. They shape shifted, but they also allowed their being to be inhabited by the animal spirit at the same time. This duality, the sharing of the system, is what can induced states like this and create, essentially, an individual which may yet seem to exceed human means. The Wrath as a result in this case of course would have come from Bear or Wolf, not Odin. Odin himself, if we are to believe the narratives in place regarding him, is not from the world soul. But this is the same for many beings which are regularly discussed here.

(I capitalize them here to represent the collective power of the entire species, as it is understood in this context under the shamanic framework. You have individual spirits, such as a wolf, and then you have the Master Spirit Wolf, which exists as a representation of that entire specie's being, nature, and power.)

This state of duality is... interesting. I experience it for ritual with a companion spirit. The outcome was not Wrath, but rather Joy in that case. During my training I was often tasked with meditating with my companion's pelt and learning to initiate that duality. Upon my first success I can only describe the sensation as breathtaking. It is no secret that I experience myself as a nonhuman person, so existing in a human mode is, at best, utterly distressing. I make note of this because when I first achieved that state of duality, I was no longer human in every manner of perception available to my being. Both physical and spiritual. My companion and I were one entity, and that was a coyote. My skin was fur, my nostrils rough and wet, and my entire experience of reality for the length of that state was as a coyote. Once harnessed this was used in Ritual and dance for the coven I was engaging with at the same time I was undergoing my training. Should I have sought another emotion or force, and another spirit, the outcome of course would have been different in terms of the result. I could very well, should I desire, engage in the berserkergang at this point in my path, but there is no need and frankly... I know better ;p. Whatever circumstances that existed in the world at the time such actions were necessary certainly do not exist now. And it would be a grave misuse of our knowledge by anyone on the path.

The uninitiated may view this process as a type of "possession", but I believe under the existing connotations this is incorrect. It goes further than that in a way which is not readily easy to describe. It is a sharing, willful and consenting, and is temporary to achieve a goal. I would say that it can leave a lasting impression on the mind, though. Personally, I had never felt more right in my entire life than I did in those moments. I look forward to being in a location where it is safe to practice this again, in the future.

In regards to control... I will say that this state could never be achieved by those with the intention of gaining control. As powerful as one may ever be, it still requires permission from the spirits of the world soul. It is not something any mortal being could readily take. So for individuals not in tune with this path, they would have to find other sources. Perhaps other beings not native to the world soul who may yet relinquish such a state for the right price. But that does not occur in the instances mentioned in this post.
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Post by Maxx on 19.08.20 8:16

[quote=
(I capitalize them here to represent the collective power of the entire species, as it is understood in this context under the shamanic framework. You have individual spirits, such as a wolf, and then you have the Master Spirit Wolf, which exists as a representation of that entire specie's being, nature, and power.)
[/quote]

This is an interesting comment.  My question to you when in the dual state, do you acquire the rapture knowledge (using that term) to experience the fact that all animals like cat, deer, mouse, wolf, etc. and then from the section like crow, eagle, etc., .A more-elaborate definition would note that they are warm-blooded vertebrates more related to reptiles than to mammals and that they have a four-chambered heart (as do mammals), then whale, etc, but I think you get what I am trying to distinguish here.  Also, I will use the snake for you to include as you are coming from the Shaman background.  Putting all of this into a question I am curious your view regarding when a cat, snake, wolf from the physical world dies, does this individual move into that collective you mention, or do they stay within an individualized framework to proceed to the next progression in that existence. If that takes place, then it would put that high evolved spirit of Master Wolf, Master Snake, etc. into a different category of LIFE experiences than a human. This must take place for them to interact with you (using you in this example as with others influenced by a interaction just as you describe above) for them to be a part of our earthly experience?   Also, at what point of time in that development does this being cross into the advancement of partaking in the human experience?  Or, If in your experience does that happen?

The description you describe in the rapture experience brings my attention into another topic which I will lightly bring up.  I know from my experience that there are different Beings that inhabit each planet in our solar system and they are in different dimensions.  That even exists here on this planet.  They also experience their life in dual capacity in the same area similar to what some call good or bad, positive or negative, etc.  These do have a very influential part in mingling with our existence during our life and to a great deal have more than most even understand about the direction of choices we choose to exist here.  
A major question I have for you here is do you find the dual nature of positive or negative or good or evil nature taking place within the Shaman experience with the animal world to incorporate a balance in nature or is it evidenced in some other way????
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Post by Tehom on 19.08.20 14:45

Before continuing, I'd just like to firstly thank you for that valuable exposition, Glasswalker. It returns me to my earlier perceptions of the Olde Germanic skin-shifters and reminds me of new ones, in the importance to constantly reconsider my viewpoints, because while sincere, they are made in this case from a scholarly perspective. I will incorporate the practical information you have given me into an update of my model.



I'd then secondly like to add to the context of my immediately preceding post -- making apparent to any future forum-readers that I do *not* concede those practitioners in my given example are demonstrating a form of control over Wrath, but rather exemplifying their control over the circumstances in which it appears. Some might wonder at the difference.

It distinctly recalls in me much of the older philosophies of Daemonologie, and Invocation, wherein to make Calling upon these forces is first recognised as ritualistically ensuring little liability of the participant(s) through means of temporally-constraining symbols and chants that would, in effect, temporarily bind the invoked to that place. Similar to defining the position of Fire to where and what we intend with Pyres, but never possessing total authority over the element itself, and keeping close to preoccupation the reality of being scorched only ever as far as is sincere the respect given to the flames. I think it linear (in the overtly mundane sense), misappropriating and retroactively "Humane" (speculating instinct as the cause) to then apply this to Wrath in Philosophy, being that I am aware any respect I may have for it is entirely irrelevant; that it is not bound by sticks and stones or summoned up in any ritual with olde names and titles, nor can such be claimed of it without surrendering a false dichotomy. Becomes my view forth that Flame is not wanting of the physicality inherent to this plane, au contraire it demonstrably relinquishes it that it isn't even invoked but simply Is, and is accessed by those achieving its vibration. Luis Marques mentions this of the Dark and Violet Flames respectively. Some make way by methods we agree on, i.e what Glasswalker gives definition with Trance and Rapture states, and others facilitate the use of psychoactive substance, the Peyote, Ayahuasca, Tobacco, the Maguey, Ololiuhqui (Ipomoea corymbosa), etc, conditionally that they are otherwise already susceptible to the Currents it is organic in, and it would appear in archaic culture even utilising Wrath as "Tool" (contextually) to heighten their magickal aptitude (or the inverse in certain sacrificial and battle rites). But in totality, I do still arrive at that they are accessing this permeating force exterior to their selves, even in or without the scenario that they assume the form of Wrath by archetype. I see a similar correlative between the mainstream consensus of liturgical shamanism comparative to the actuality in praxis and the noumenal permeability of Wrath obverse to its indefinable proportions. We cannot attribute Wrath conjecture of physical parallel simply of the fact that those with connatural presuppositions of Wrath happen to display it in deeply physical narratives. By extension, I am discovering it ongoingly curious the quiet relationship between our conceptualised Wrath and the Nature of Deities as we understand them in Occult work...


In absence of any available alternative, and with little compromise I think it conclusive to establish the method in which those Higher Entities and Divine interact with Wrath is as we understand of innate separation to most mundane 3 dimensional comprehensions of the same process—Action > Anger > Wrath—, in keeping with the authenticity of this study we're unable to really apply our ideologies of Mastery here in either case. I'd love my view to be challenged here because it does seem a tad simple a conclusion: "well, it's beyond most people's understanding however you view it. Moving on..!"


I found a surprising amount of insight into this subject—the "Divinity" of Wrath—in some of TOTBL's works, even mentioning its usefulness to Me on this forum about 5 years ago. Unrelated, but I think back on that time knowing that many missed what I'd put into the subtext of my writing, and instead assumed of what was first given. It's one way to ensure such serves a purpose, I suppose, relying on the Ignorance of the many to illuminate the subtly-hidden. As I heard recently, " it is not always the case for many to know not to accept at first glance."



Looking forward to further contributions.
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Post by Glasswalker on 19.08.20 22:44

Hello, Maxx. I will do my best to answer your questions.

Maxx wrote:This is an interesting comment. My question to you when in the dual state, do you acquire the rapture knowledge (using that term) to experience the fact that all animals like cat, deer, mouse, wolf, etc. and then from the section like crow, eagle, etc

I would infer that you mean is the experience different depending on the species you are engaging with? And does the knowledge given reflect their physical natures? To the former, absolutely, to the latter, to an extent. Regarding the former, we don't really call upon a whole menagerie in our life times that we are called to serve. Generally what happens is you are inducted, taught by the inducting Master Spirit, and when you have learned what you can, you are led to another spirit (usually not Master in this case) that will continue to teach you. This takes time. While I have interacted briefly with many beings, I am still a student of Coyote and Coyote and their magic is what I am still being trained in. I have, on occasion, been gifted "sight" of another type of spirit through Journey, but it has never been for extended periods.

To the latter, experiencing the framework of another living being is much different than the incessant symbolism people concern themselves with. Humans have this incredibly odd habit of symbolizing an animal, and 9 times out of 10 that symbolism is an incorrect approximation of what it is like to actually be said animal. Fields like Cognitive Ethology and CAS (Critical Animal studies) are catching up (both I engage in on the regular in academic circles), but it is a very slow process for this information to reach the layman. Yes, it is different from snake to crow, but the way in which many expect it to be different is certainly less strange than the actual experience.

If you are curious, Coyote is a healing spirit. While, of course, very wise and very prone to being sly on occasion, their energy is fire and it is used to teach the person how to heal. I've never been "tricked" in a way that was negative to my growth as a being.

Maxx wrote:Also, I will use the snake for you to include as you are coming from the Shaman background. Putting all of this into a question I am curious your view regarding when a cat, snake, wolf from the physical world dies, does this individual move into that collective you mention, or do they stay within an individualized framework to proceed to the next progression in that existence. If that takes place, then it would put that high evolved spirit of Master Wolf, Master Snake, etc. into a different category of LIFE experiences than a human. This must take place for them to interact with you (using you in this example as with others influenced by a interaction just as you describe above) for them to be a part of our earthly experience? Also, at what point of time in that development does this being cross into the advancement of partaking in the human experience? Or, If in your experience does that happen?

You have Master Spirits and you have regular spirits, like you and us. There can be more than one Master Spirit, and those who are on the path to becoming one (they would reside in the "upper world" as it is is known in the path. I will say, though, that this upper world is not a whole different world, but rather the framework (upper, middle, and lower) that exists as a universal tool in which we are taught upon our first few journeys. You could look at it as a structure made and maintained by the world soul themselves). When a new species comes into existence, or one reaches an incredible wisdom, the world soul takes their spirits and places them at the center of all pathways to that species. The world soul provides them the knowledge and wisdom (should they be new) necessary in order to guide all others of that species. In the shamanic tradition, a coyote knows how to be coyote because he is from Coyote, if that makes sense. Of course this is speaking strictly spiritual.

Under this framework, however, there is no separation from souls which inhabit human shells and those who inhabit nonhuman shells. We could all choose to take the shell of a grasshopper, so we should be inclined. If a grasshopper should desire, grasshopper would have to grow and learn before taking a larger body. It is a cycle of rebirth and learning for all souls that reside here, as guided by the world soul themselves. And, as we know, not all life in existence on the planet exists as physical in this current moment. People can choose to not incarnate for a period, or stay nonphysical (by people I refer to both the nonhuman and human), for whatever personal reasons. And there are many who are "different" in which people refer to as "demons" who act the same. There is no differentiating on the nonphysical, really, in my experience. No hierarchies, no classifications. Only you and what knowledge you've gained over your existence, which generally dictates where you want to go next.

The individual spirits in which one may call on in ritual are simply those whom of which are not incarnated at that time. They can provide their individual power, or should it be necessary, one in my position could call out to the Master Spirit. Though the situation would have to be dire. Master Spirits only engage with physical persons uncalled when that person is being called to accept the path. As they are the beings, in their wisdom provided by the world soul, which initiate and induct you into service of the earth. This is required to call oneself a shaman. No living person can hold this power, and to my knowledge Master Spirits don't reincarnate. They exist within the core of the world soul.

Maxx wrote:A major question I have for you here is do you find the dual nature of positive or negative or good or evil nature taking place within the Shaman experience with the animal world to incorporate a balance in nature or is it evidenced in some other way????

Like nature, this experience of duality is inherently not negative or positive. These associations are born out of the conscious mind and reflect what is and isn't beneficial to a being. To experience modes that I am not native to has been exhilarating, of course, but it was always for a purpose. Whether I needed to learn a specific lesson, or have help healing someone when I used to volunteer, it was a very engaging but overall neutral process. I have never experienced children of the world soul to be a negative force. Even when I have been harmed in journey, I was never actually harmed. It was a subtle experience for the sake of learning, and there has never been an ill intent behind it. These actions are always done in order to help people. It is not an act of balance, rather individual need in an individual moment.

Tehom wrote:In absence of any available alternative, and with little compromise I think it conclusive to establish the method in which those Higher Entities and Divine interact with Wrath is as we understand of innate separation to most mundane 3 dimensional comprehensions of the same process—Action > Anger > Wrath—, in keeping with the authenticity of this study we're unable to really apply our ideologies of Mastery here in either case. I'd love my view to be challenged here because it does seem a tad simple a conclusion: "well, it's beyond most people's understanding however you view it. Moving on..!"

I appreciate the bit of humor at the end, Tehom. It may be difficult, of course, but certainly not outside the realm of any individual person. At least I am inclined to believe there is always a path to understanding. Though the path can often be... long.

In a way, I think it is on one side of the coin possibly correct to not only view Wrath as external to the physical experience, as a force, and that many people are prone to fooling themselves that they have either accessed it or gained control over it.The latter makes each case more and more difficult to distinguish, given the nature of the inter personal experience. On the other side... I would consider the equal potentiality that it is beyond most available modes because it is a product of a specific kind of mode (consciousness) and the circumstances in which it is prone to manifest are just extreme. That perhaps it would do better to look inward for answers.

I will say I am individually undecided on which would be the most likely. It is not something I have thought about often, and only experienced once, so my perceptions are limited to musing. It will probably be a while before I am shown enough to lean either way.

Additionally, I would be inclined to put every Divine entity at the same level of "I don't know what I'm doing" as the rest of us, but that is mostly reliant on the fact that in my journey in this universe, I have not witnessed a power beyond a reasonable imagining. Beings that are objectively stronger, but always with a clear path of the time and experience necessary to reach such a level. In this way, I view all higher entities as beings who were once where we are, they're just old as dirt now. And it is this difference in age and wisdom that make them appear mysterious and all encompassing to many. In this way, I don't believe they have control or access to Wrath in a way that is not, eventually, obtainable by any other kind of being. Perhaps some have spent more time with it and focusing their core being around the force (The Ram, comes to mind... Ares), but they are still subject to being burned should they disrespect its nature.
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Post by Maxx on 20.08.20 7:20

An excellent explanation in return to my questions.  I appreciate that.  I have never seen a revelation from others which went into the depth you offered.  You send me great hope that so much of the material out there that is given as fact I have never been comfortable with accepting as I was uncomfortable with their explanation.  Much of the material you mentioned confirms my experiences though I have not ventured into some of the areas you are explaining. I suppose we each have our different paths and interests we are internally led to pursue. But you confirm some  of my different views on how the shape of "things" are arranged.  I appreciate you extending your explanations and going even farther than requested into the subject.  

I look forward to your new book release.   (I am a mischievous one, as Coyote knows)
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Post by Tehom on 20.08.20 16:53

Perhaps now we can look to something more approachable, an exercise more rooted in practicality, yet should warrant no danger beyond who you are.
Something that Speaks to Me as I ascertain it does much the same to you all: Art.
 

The lands and vistas where our greatest inner visions are presented to the Thinking World; where our dreams dare delegate the task of most Pure introspection. Indeed, this area of "dream-work" is unarguably the most serene, an ancient beauty and arte existing of Us all, never lost to time...



 I had shared one art-piece from the acclaimed John Martin here, partly as a primer to this area. I would like to see what Art speaks to You of Wrath, what is reflected of your own experiences within it.
As there lies a wondrous bridge betwixt the valley of our worlds, and makes opportune a deeper comprehension of our selves.
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Post by Tehom on 20.08.20 22:27

To future readers: If you've no interest in my choosing of this approach, my philosophy regarding it, or the challenging of it, this post can be skipped entirely.


It is not necessary to the remainder of this thread.



My method with this divergent route is to segue into modern cultural interpretation of Wrath and its characterised usages by more Jungian philosophy. It's not at all to say that I derive the weight of meaning we will find to be of something like psychoanalysis or Freudian Psychodynamics, but that my predisposition involves that with selfdom in tandem (I am an analyst at heart), and it would be hypocritically unfaithful to my liberties here to ignore it.  It's standard in my practice to understand central narratives relative to their singular proponents when attempting a fair-footing in any given consensus. So to know the consensus pertaining to Wrath using a kind of Self-interview regimen is my first (ambitious) step in this direction. I believe in the "You" above the You All.  Given that we approach this from spiritualist backgrounds, such leniency is by default encouraged here, and so I want to take full advantage of it in every context I find both feasible and available.


But I am not then made free from criticism for this method as a consequence of this being an open Occult forum. There are reputable living "thinkers" that would entirely disagree with my premise and should be addressed in plain view so as to not to tilt anyone in favour of my bias, for of course we are dealing in strict (substantiated) theory.  I want to ensure that any opposition at least represented of its equity relative to the scale of reason, but this becomes almost an impossibility when we are toward famed critical scientific thinkers for source material. Beyond my means is the ability to here conceive of a logically consistent way in which modern scientific approach will finally shake hands with spirituality, so there isn't much I can do for it outside of introducing valid fault-finding in the logic behind this section of qualitative research.

I considered Noam Chomsky, though he is found in much less-interested spheres and as I gather unbothered about what all of this surmounts. To quote: "I do not think psychoanalysis has a scientific basis. If we can’t explain why a cockroach decides to turn left, how can we explain why a human being decides to do something?"

Zizek could be considered as making a position against my Philosophy but comes forward from uneven ground in his doing so, and eventually altogether succumbs to fallacious argument. A consequence wrought moreso of unfamiliarity with the totality of our subject matter, as I'm fairly certain of a difference in result if he were here in person.  His more extensive remarks offer a better-equipped assessment (*if you are new to Zizek, his points get heavier as his talks proceed in length), though keep forefront in Mind that this is Philosophy critical of the processes of Psychoanalysis and not definitively critical of my quasi-Jungian interpretive model. For those still reading, We can try to apply similar criticisms in place of any absence, because I do not fairly come to an Occult forum expecting intensive Philosophical arguments.


*I will at least cite references for those who are wanting. I again invite any to challenge this method themselves and/or to cite better philosophical arguments that might assist us in the way of achieving the most practical mental approach.


Zizek's argument.:

Zizek's better examination. :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XniIQaL1b8k

Chomsky's comment .:
https://chomsky.info/20031102/
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Post by 8lou1 on 21.08.20 12:24

tehom im not very eloquent with words, most of the time i find songs that work with my intent.

i can say though that its my impression that real wrath comes from love. ive seen the wrath coming from hate and its hardly as potent as the one ive seen coming from love. it seem both are black indeed, but there is a difference in the creation of that blackness.

to get a feel from what i mean, one might listen to this song and ground onseself with these 2 feelings seperately.
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Post by Tehom on 21.08.20 18:24

To 8lou,

I've found in what you've expressed here a redeeming curiosity to my day, Lou. That which you've said is something that admittedly went entirely unconsidered by myself, being the symbiosis of the relationship seen in Wrath and Love, but from the recipient's perspective. It offers a separatist stance — can Wrath be inferentially considered a manifestation of Love's intent, or at minimum as a thing dictated by Love to the extent that Wrath is demonstrably directable by forces that supersede it in energetic value? there certainly aren't many to list.
It's a mathematically consistent theory and lines up well-enough with the Asetian framework.  Aset can be considered to be using Wrath consequential of the boundless Love she possesses for her Children, so the permanence of Wrath would then be actually illusory to this higher perspective. This is a completely lateral Philosophy I'll need greater time to consider. Thank you for this excellent contribution.
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Post by Tehom on 21.08.20 21:05

A Discussion Pertaining to the Misknown Flame: Wrath - Page 2 Destru10

The Destruction of Pompeii and Herculaneum, John Martin, 1822.

I will preface by stating that I am no art-critic,  and I want only to derive Occult significance from the presented work(s). You will have to forgive me of any pretence.


I've thought John was well in-touch with the Power in Wrath conceptually, but also emotionally, because he puts to canvas what many of us describe here. John was a deeply religious, God-fearing man and found himself marvellously inspired of the gospels and passages in the Bible. He sought to explain much of his belief through his artwork. He followed the philosophy of Natural Religion which was exceedingly popular in the late 18th and 19th centuries, respectively.

 Seen in this artwork is depiction of the more visually descriptive Destruction of Pompeii; the wild at first untamed thrashings of flame and lightning that comport this overwhelming presence of conflict in the viewer. The brilliant visual narrative would imply Divine intervention, I think, in the circular, all-encompassing drive of the present pandemonium that almost presents a cave analogy; like Men are taken from their vulgar, selfish little worlds and find themselves consumed by the cavern of God's Wrath. No remnants of their known environment here remain, neither sun nor sky, but their dooming wrought of the extent of their sins. There is no escape to be found.

It of course requires some familiarity with these notions to be able to express them artistically. Freud would agree to this. So I think in this excerpt of his psyche he means to show the ultimatum, being the trapping of Wrath, the inescapable, insurmountable nature of it, the perceived permanence of it that he lived his life fearing.

Less serving to tell of divine punishment does the imagery here communicate that we are at War with our perceptions of it. I would say that he imagined Wrath a divine thing delivered to the simple world of Men who are so awestruck at their ability to perceive at all its violence, and in deifying it, are subject to repeatedly inherit it. This view can be applied today, Being that the Philosophies of Natural Religion coinciding with the post-modern Hermeticism are shared by many 20th-21st Western and Eastern occult schools, that is that we are of the Spirit, and so as all Things Are we are All Things. ( à la, the axiom All is Mind. )


John's works went on to inspire a significant amount of the general public and he was widely famed for his relatability in his time. In 1821 Thomas Lawrence, fourth president of the Royal Academy of Arts in London, referred to him as "the most popular painter of his day". I think even barring the religiosity of his work, his perceptions of Wrath shown with his talents were resonant in almost all of the general public, as many other religious art figures of that period received nowhere near equal critical/public acclaim. People had not seen how they felt and thought shown to them in such an accurate way so as to fully describe their smallness in the face of these great constructs.
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Post by Glasswalker on 22.08.20 3:07

Tehom wrote: I had shared one art-piece from the acclaimed John Martin here, partly as a primer to this area. I would like to see what Art speaks to You of Wrath, what is reflected of your own experiences within it.

I sat and thought on this for some time, trying to bring an image to mind that would be applicable. Every time I considered something externally wrathful, further introspection led me to the realization that the depictions weren't in earnest. Concepts kept coming to mind, but many of them did not have visual counterparts. However, tonight, I rediscovered a visual connection to an idea that I believe is applicable.

A Discussion Pertaining to the Misknown Flame: Wrath - Page 2 LIzMWBy

The Sword of Damocles by Richard Westall, 1812.

I'd like to go into my thought process as to why I believe this is relevant to the topic at hand, and what it can provide for consideration. It is externally tangential at first, as the narrative behind the art (and the anecdote which the art depicts) concerns an individual's lust for power and fortune, which puts that individual at risk to the consequences of what that power and fortune brings. Or could bring should one act out of Ego. What stood out to me was the underlining reason as to why the sword exists in the first place, rather than what it is outwardly supposed to teach us. Apocrypha. That greed is dangerous. In the story, Dionysius had made many enemies and had arranged the sword in such a way in order to keep him ever mindful of that fact. In this way, the sword is a symbolic manifestation of the Wrath invoked in others as a consequence of his actions. This part in particular has always been striking to me because most are fearful of such forces. They would shun and detract from them in order to make the reality less frightening, as had been previously discussed in this thread. But in this instance, a man took great care to be conscious of the perils of his Ego.

Discussion pertaining to Wrath generally concerns what Wrath means to the self. Be it through experience or thought in relation to the self. Wrath is always considered with the self at the center of that consideration. Here, the Sword is Wrath external, a consequence. Action that could be ours or another's. I believe this is something to be mindful of, just as Dionysius was. Wrath can be terrifying even if one is in a position to wield it, but the depths of that terror compound should it be wielded against you.

This consideration is something I have previously been working on for the last few years. Conflict is inevitable, but it is tedious and wasteful. To invoke Wrath in person, Deity, or natural force is to dishonor the self with Egoistic action, and to dishonor those which have been invoked.
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Post by Tehom on 23.08.20 4:56

Before continuing . . . (*personal note)

Not to disrupt the cohesion of this thread, but I'd wanted to take a moment to self-reflect, or rather to confront myself and honour the good-faith of it. A good deal of my thoughts on this specific topic might've been summarised by simpler wording if not for my attitude.  My use of language is abstract and at times nauseatingly ostentatious to the extent that I often roll my eyes at my own sentences before sending them. My reasoning could very easily be misconstrued and before long, I'd end up encouraging psuedo-intellectualism in this forum's newer members, helping to dismantle its credibility in the process. Obviously this just doesn't do.

This is the only resolution I want accepted from this post: "Intelligent" points are just pretentious if they're not intelligible.


 I am not at all very good at expressing complicated ideas in simple language, and I don't like to modify my thoughts too much once I've collected them, but I should think to improve upon my ability to do so to make myself more coherent and less annoying to listen to. I'm working on this change Now. I do have multifaceted points to share that I believe are genuine, but I should know by now that it then becomes my duty to communicate them both clearly and sufficiently to this forum. There is nothing wrong with intelligent discourse in the Occult, there is something wrong with pompous intellectualism in the Occult, and I've done a terribly good job of proving that. This is no excuse for my behaviour and I am still liable for all I have brought to light, no "but". I take full accountability and plan to act on it.  I am not in a University environment, I'm on an Occult forum, so this is a much-needed reality check for myself. I also do not want any silly praise/rejection to my recognising this stupidly egotistical matter in this thread, so if you've anything to say regarding it, you can PM me. If you've something to criticise publicly, create another topic. Let's continue.
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Post by 8lou1 on 23.08.20 6:32

A Discussion Pertaining to the Misknown Flame: Wrath - Page 2 TxOKtND

This is a wattpad image. I dont know the story written nor the writer. I was searching for art that could express what wrath means to me. I actually found several, but my mind went on a loop when i wanted to put things to words. So i decided on this one.

While this lady is brought into slavery as a trophy, she is bowing her head for the safety of her people. The conquerers partying on her loss, dont notice that the earth shes walking on, is already igniting with the fires of her dispair. She accepts her fate silently while she ignites her peoples revange with every step she takes. She knows that that the chains are only there for their greater goal and that she is taken to be used. Little does her new "master" know about what he just ignited and will be fully responsible for. the only strings attached between the master and his slave, being the egoistic chains he pulls her with...
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