Undeath: A Form of "Enlightenment"

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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 30.08.20 6:30

Vampires, in lore and fiction, are sometimes said to be of one of the undead - the "living" risen corpse. However, I believe this is only allegorical in a way and has deeper occult or esoteric significance. The purpose of this thread is to discuss undeath out of a living, non-fictional perspective, where the notion takes on a spiritual meaning and understanding, not in a negative but in a different sense. For example we know that the Anubians, or Keepers, are in contact with the realms of death through their nature as originated by Anpu, or Anubis, who is considered as the god of death. Given, they are not always considered to be vampires, nor is that the direct cause of me writing this thread, but will suffice as a kind of example to illustrate my point in the relation between different creatures and my understanding or notion of undeath in a spiritual meaning. Now, however, I don't know if Anubians are considered "undead", since there is little viable information upon them, but it gives a close similarity in understanding to this notion of undeath, by their being in deeper contact with the realms of death and its energies and so might even become great necromancers as we might be led to believe. But, my point being here that, in terms of my own experience, I've encountered some strange feeling or sensation or veritable condition within my own being, that I've named as "undeath", where the energies of life are there but... there's still some form of deep, possibly psycho-spiritual or overlapped to psychological, feeling that I'm not truly alive as most people are alive, or experience life out of a necessarily living perspective even though life is deeply lived, embraced and appreciated with tremendous gratitude. I've felt in a way dead since many, many years ago when I had a profound spiritual experience but that was deeply destabilizing, leading me into a different state of mind, feeling completely dead to this world or as if this world has lost all of its former value where only Will reigns in order to survive in this physical vessel and only nature is appreciated but not the human world hardly at all, in so far as they are incapable to replicate the natural beauty of the universe or cosmos and thus being in natural alignment with such authentic goodness, not to use a moralistic notion but a view of nature that is filled with abundance and resplendent beauty in its depths of multiplicity through which is indeed reflected, in variously unique ways, the singular light of Beauty, in my view. [...] So this experience, however, took on a kind of connotation as a form of very powerful initiation. I can't go into deeper details, but I believe I can draw a close parallel to breaking open the Sarcophagus of Flesh that is mentioned in the Book of Orion, which this experience to a very similar extent, in my understanding, included. That leads me to kind of interconnecting the life of most ordinary mortals, who are stuck in the realm of the living within their Sarcophagus of Flesh, to the notion of undeath, but which would be contrary to that normal understanding of life, if at all breaking open the Sarcophagus of Flesh is meant to give this experience, insight or feeling into "undeath" but which I don't fully know, as I'm not a master with expertise in that area but can only draw what I see as close parallels. I wonder if others have a similar experience, or can share some thoughts to elaborate upon a form of understanding as to this state of being, veritable condition or "enlightened" experience that transcends beyond the boundaries of matter into the realms of spirit where one would be considered risen in a way; but, whilst drawn back to this world, experiences an odd feeling of unusual difference, otherness and even what I have here called as "undeath" where life is never viewed the same again, but not in an unhealthy nor negative way necessarily, even if it might have both advantages and disadvantages, strengths and weaknesses, depending upon how one utilizes or wields it but that, to say the least, it yields a higher perspective that is spiritual in kind. One feels in deeper connection with the lands beyond living, the realms of death, where infinite potential awaits to be brought into manifestation through its energies and somewhat, then, "enlightened" state, not to use an exaggeration of making claims but to illustrate an example of feeling as to how it is inwardly experienced in a rather profound way. Not to make it about me, then, however, but this feeling has at sometimes become more noticeable than at other times, which might lead to the question of recurrence and re-emergent realization or insight into it, depending upon certain factors such as state of mind, energy and awareness. I consider it a gift where near about infinite potential has opened up - only to be shaped and molded into manifestation by the perseverance of effort throughout time...

Feel free to discuss.

Thank you for reading.
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Post by Jonathan on 30.08.20 9:49

Interesting discourse on the concept of undeath from a perspective of enlightenment. That's not a very common view but it may hold value. I appreciate these posts.

Just a small advice, when writing those texts maybe try giving them a better formatting with paragraphs and such as it makes reading easier.

One question. You mentioned Anubians which is an interesting detail as well. In your view how does the Anubian awakening and initiation may be related to this state of undeath that you describe?
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Post by Ramla-Meryt on 30.08.20 12:57

Vampires, in lore and fiction, are sometimes said to be of one of the undead - the "living" risen corpse. However, I believe this is only allegorical in a way and has deeper occult or esoteric significance. The purpose of this thread is to discuss undeath out of a living, non-fictional perspective, where the notion takes on a spiritual meaning and understanding, not in a negative but in a different sense. For example we know that the Anubians, or Keepers, are in contact with the realms of death through their nature as originated by Anpu, or Anubis, who is considered as the god of death. Given, they are not always considered to be vampires, nor is that the direct cause of me writing this thread, but will suffice as a kind of example to illustrate my point in the relation between different creatures and my understanding or notion of undeath in a spiritual meaning.

Given how spiritual awakening in a general sense across the traditions and paradigms that I have heard of and even referenced by solitary practitioners has been described using a range of death-life parallels (i.e. awakening, dark night of the soul etc), the suggestion of vampires being of the undead or as a living corpse in the sense of an allegory does seem quite a grounded proposal. Their former selves have died and they have become Other. Depending on the context and the time period, the painting of this as a negative is distinctly understood.

But, my point being here that, in terms of my own experience, I've encountered some strange feeling or sensation or veritable condition within my own being, that I've named as "undeath", where the energies of life are there but... there's still some form of deep, possibly psycho-spiritual or overlapped to psychological, feeling that I'm not truly alive as most people are alive, or experience life out of a necessarily living perspective even though life is deeply lived, embraced and appreciated with tremendous gratitude.

Feeling misaligned or out of place to the point of conceptualising oneself as dead to the world or dead within it makes a degree of sense when looking at the predominant modern preoccupations versus what is contrary to that. Take the example of hermits, before the fashion to have someone on your estate paid to act in the role -- a person living in solitude. They would effectively be dead to society by taking that step into seclusion.

I've felt in a way dead since many, many years ago when I had a profound spiritual experience but that was deeply destabilizing, leading me into a different state of mind, feeling completely dead to this world or as if this world has lost all of its former value where only Will reigns in order to survive in this physical vessel and only nature is appreciated but not the human world hardly at all, in so far as they are incapable to replicate the natural beauty of the universe or cosmos and thus being in natural alignment with such authentic goodness, not to use a moralistic notion but a view of nature that is filled with abundance and resplendent beauty in its depths of multiplicity through which is indeed reflected, in variously unique ways, the singular light of Beauty, in my view. [...]

It does sound like ego death to me, although quite an extreme version of it, although I will fully admit that my access to individual accounts of transformations of a spiritual nature and awakenings has been limited in terms of the sheer number of those experiencing such a thing goes. A shifting of priorities in terms of the strong alignment to nature versus that of man-made origin sounds aligned with the deconstruction of the old self.

That leads me to kind of interconnecting the life of most ordinary mortals, who are stuck in the realm of the living within their Sarcophagus of Flesh, to the notion of undeath, but which would be contrary to that normal understanding of life, if at all breaking open the Sarcophagus of Flesh is meant to give this experience, insight or feeling into "undeath" but which I don't fully know, as I'm not a master with expertise in that area but can only draw what I see as close parallels. I wonder if others have a similar experience, or can share some thoughts to elaborate upon a form of understanding as to this state of being, veritable condition or "enlightened" experience that transcends beyond the boundaries of matter into the realms of spirit where one would be considered risen in a way; but, whilst drawn back to this world, experiences an odd feeling of unusual difference, otherness and even what I have here called as "undeath" where life is never viewed the same again, but not in an unhealthy nor negative way necessarily, even if it might have both advantages and disadvantages, strengths and weaknesses, depending upon how one utilizes or wields it but that, to say the least, it yields a higher perspective that is spiritual in kind.

Feeling awakening to something higher while not truly being grounded in what is living makes sense, although I invite you to consider this - or attempt to do so - from a non-Western perspective where society and thus the priorities therein would be quite different. While truly seeing it from another cultural perspective without securely becoming a part of another culture in the process is not something readily accessed by such a medium as the internet, I think that some degree of detangling the perception of being dead to the realm of living versus being disillusioned with Western preoccupations might be useful. How much of what you are feeling dead to can truly be applied universally and how much is specific to the current age and setting?

The mortal experience is by no means universal, even if certain narratives are more dominant and total in terms of what they encompass than others. Even if you go on to self-examine and decide that you have been still awakened to a liminal state, I think that self-questioning is always something useful to engage in even if something of a risky rabbit-hole in itself.

One feels in deeper connection with the lands beyond living, the realms of death, where infinite potential awaits to be brought into manifestation through its energies and somewhat, then, "enlightened" state, not to use an exaggeration of making claims but to illustrate an example of feeling as to how it is inwardly experienced in a rather profound way. Not to make it about me, then, however, but this feeling has at sometimes become more noticeable than at other times, which might lead to the question of recurrence and re-emergent realization or insight into it, depending upon certain factors such as state of mind, energy and awareness. I consider it a gift where near about infinite potential has opened up - only to be shaped and molded into manifestation by the perseverance of effort throughout time...

The fluctuation of focus and the predominance of the opened eyes makes sense, as unless you are have the means to completely disconnect from the modern world and live in a self-sufficient manner off the grid, most individuals to some degree or another still grounded and bound, engaging not necessarily fully on their terms but through mundane necessities. Finding the time to perhaps enhance the access to that potential does sound like an enlightening experience in itself, before even considering the end goal.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 30.08.20 13:20

Thank you, Jonathan.

Well, to that question I can't really speculate much, since it's the domain of a species of Otherkin that I know very little about, as most of us here, I would presume. But, if my theories above were in any way accurate, and able to connect to the Anubians, I'd believe potentially that there's some form of inner hidden mechanism of their soul shedding the skin of the human ego and personality and its last vestiges to go into a more total state of true self-realization and by that a form of awakening but this is just extrapolated from my own self-understanding, which I don't believe to be Anubian, as you know. It's something I've theorized about as relates to my own past which has been terribly difficult in that respect of feeling my whole human self fall apart in certain ways but that could also be due to variously different reasons which are more psychological in nature, if not verily, to a certain extent, released or triggered by a similar mechanism that I did extrapolate from, in the theory of myself, unto the Anubians, if that at all can match some form of accuracy but which I don't believe comes very close in actuality due to comparison of quality and detail, where I believe Anubians to be higher beings than myself, not meaning anything rude or disrespectful towards my own spiritual kin, if I can say that, in such a way, however, but just to be objective where my understanding presently is. Although I'm as of yet rather ignorant and non-knowledgeable upon these matters in order to make any sufficient comparison, if that would at all be desirable; maybe it's so that they're just of different natures, unique in their own rights and for their own qualities and attributes, and shouldn't be hierarchically classified although there are signs or indications of some being generally above others in different ways of metaphysical skill, prowess, elegance, subtlety, strengths, weaknesses, powers, abilities, handicaps, etc.

I believe, however, in discerning individuals for who they are and not judging upon a mere label, as it might otherwise become, but which we should naturally know both to - and how to - look beyond, by looking beneath the surface layer of words and preconceived notions and thus uncovering the kernel of truth in reality and then even seeing how such labels might apply in dishonest ways as there might for example by many frauds out there. But I believe that we can still safely say that some beings are generally higher than most, and nothing to become an attraction for the ego of certain people who might read this in trying to falsely identify with such and thus becoming in great need or urgency for a reality check as it is a commonly recurring issue with many as it appears but not at all targeted towards anyone specifically, but just because people often tend to wish to be on the top of whatever hierarchy is presented to them out of their own inner lack, insecurity or lack of self-esteem, greed of self-importance or need of wanting to feel special and/or having wishful thinking, which all can be done away with through an honest recognition of Self and resting in that Self-contentment which means the realization of spirit; one's true identity beyond the false identifications of the ego mind. But such things could apply here in a general way, sometimes, as we've probably seen many times. And, moreover, this could subconsciously be interpreted as a form of hierarchy, the interrelations of Otherkin, particularly in an Asetianism-related context, although not being explicitly anything as such in reality, from my view. However the notion I presented of these beings, as the Asetians and Anubians, being generally above was just as a mere statement of observation as to how they operate with honor, dignity and deep occult secrecy, hidden as a society for millennia from the common or public gaze of history and thus re-enacting their hidden ways of operation in silence since times immemorial although also containing allies and different beings from diverse ranges of Otherkin and even then exceptional Humans as well as it appears.

But, to continue on another point where I had left off on a rather long tangent there... maybe there are similar principles at play with most Otherkin and their process of self-realization and/or awakening, even the Asetians to some extent, even though they'd vary with intensity, depth and experience depending upon nature, which might become widely different forms of expression that can't really be compared. Even humans might experience a similar principle in their form of self-realization to their own spiritual awakening which can be taken to great heights and which many of us might resonate with or feel more familiar, since it might be the basic underlay we have, and I personally believe I'm far closer to a human nature in that respect than an Asetian or Anubian, for example, yet having my own strange nature which I might sometimes doubt, tend to overlook, or lack a complete integration upon... when it is not unleashed and I return to my more "civilized" manners. That is, in contradistinction to an unacceptable nature, mindset and behavior in relation to society, that dwells in the darkness of an otherwise repressed mind and psyche that doesn't always dare to confront its own inner depths of apparent monstrosity, but for which one has to then pay the penalty of slow and crippling harm or psychological damage and its resultant imbalance, for which I had to suffer for years especially under Christian dogma. It was a form of neglecting of Self which should be deemed as unacceptable and which calls for rather fierce opposition towards that mediocrity of general conformity to other religions' and/or people's narrow-minded, all-light fabricated, humanely dogmatic ideals and standards, and calls thus for a form of adversarial relation in regards to accepting such limited ideas, with a critical gaze of discernment. Those things of horrible self-limitation I had to do away with vehemently, from years of psychological oppression and religious enslavement.

To tie back to the original point and question, however: I'm just not certain about this, of course, but what I've mentioned previously about shedding the skin of the human ego and personality could be some key and then that initiation and awakening of Anubians can tie in with the energies of death, primarily through their nature and essence which is originated from Anpu, the god of death, but also secondarily due to the death of the false self, or ego and human persona, for which the primary cause is resurrected or awakened to the new life of that "undead" state or state of attuning to the energies of death, if that however - or the notion of "undeath" - is at all accurate to apply here towards these beings which we know very little of but can only speculate about for the most part. So I don't know if that's accurate at all nor do I want anyone to cite or reference me on that as any fact, due to respect for these beings, but just clearly stating it as mere speculation of course, within this context of speculation, so I hope it doesn't come off the wrong way...

Ramla-Meryt, I'll try to come back you tomorrow. Smile
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Post by Nightshade on 30.08.20 13:25

Do you believe this sense of being dead while staying alive is absolute or in the other hand it's something that may be connected to your surroundings, life and the state of humanity? For example I experience something in a way opposed to this, at least in concept from a broad perspective, which is I look around me and most people feel dead while I'm alive. I see people living their robotic lives, the monotony of their daily routines, there is no spark in their eyes, no flame and a wickedness that is very visible on those embracing a vibrant life. Their hopes and desires attached to only mundane attainment, the empty gathering of riches, how to please their 9to5 boss who sees them as nothing but another statistic. This can't be generalized to everyone but in my perspective it applies to most people around me. So sometimes I feel like I'm experiencing an inversion of what you're describing, as if I'm a roaming soul filled with life, color and passion in a reality surrounded by zombies, the undead, people lacking any true deep form of awareness who only know how to react but not to think, not to question, not to explore, not to dare. No flame in the eyes...
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Post by Jonathan on 30.08.20 13:57

MysticLightShinethForth wrote:
I believe, however, in discerning individuals for who they are and not judging upon a mere label, as it might otherwise become, but which we should naturally know both to - and how to - look beyond, by looking beneath the surface layer of words and preconceived notions and thus uncovering the kernel of truth in reality and then even seeing how such labels might apply in dishonest ways as there might for example by many frauds out there. But I believe that we can still safely say that some beings are generally higher than most, and nothing to become an attraction for the ego of certain people who might read this in trying to falsely identify with such and thus becoming in great need or urgency for a reality check as it is a commonly recurring issue with many as it appears but not at all targeted towards anyone specifically, but just because people often tend to wish to be on the top of whatever hierarchy is presented to them out of their own inner lack, insecurity or lack of self-esteem, greed of self-importance or need of wanting to feel special and/or having wishful thinking, which all can be done away with through an honest recognition of Self and resting in that Self-contentment which means the realization of spirit; one's true identity beyond the false identifications of the ego mind. But such things could apply here in a general way, sometimes, as we've probably seen many times.

This was very well said and I couldn't agree more. That sort of universal hierarchies or layers of nature, which are not accurately described by these words but they are what we have to reference them, do play a major trick on those unstable egos that you mention, causing for people to always seek what appears to be more important or special or mysterious which of course is nothing but a delusion and not a genuine search for truth and inner nature. It's a recurring theme indeed. Asetianism is particularly known to cause all sorts of crash n’ burn episodes on people when approached without a balanced ego as you well know, easily smashing any egotistical mind and elegantly dancing on its grave. Not everyone is built of the good stuff to survive a dark night of the soul. This applies to other initiatory paths as well and not just Asetianism. I like it how you approach many of these subjects with an always humble discourse, which may appear subservient or diminishing of yourself to those who are ignorant and self-centered, but that to others who are wiser can see that such humbleness is in fact a telltale sign of strength and identity. Don’t lose that about you. It’s something many can learn from and I suspect some even envy.
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Post by Void on 30.08.20 16:08

Maybe it's just different angle, hard to say. But I've had couple of experiences, which broke my perception of reality, and perception of self. Leaving me wandering around in zombie states, going on my day on pure auto and completely disconnected, for days. Feeling almost or completely nothing for anything and anyone around me, and feeling nothing for the reality I may have held quite solid only few days ago. Until slowly my mind and heart manages to "come back to it's body", in a way, yet never quite able to "connect" to it all as well as I used to. But I never looked at it from "death" perspective. For me it was more of experience of "experiencing/witnessing life beyond life", or "greater life beyond that my own small perception of life.." or something along the lines, it's difficult to verbalize those complicated feelings.
I haven't really asked my self if am alive, I may have asked my self if everybody else is, though. On occasions, or how much alive they all really are. So does "feeling disconnection from know reality" equals to "feeling death inside", and does "experiencing life beyond life" equals to "greater/deeper awakening" and we are looking at certain personal moments from different angles and perspectives? Or are those completely different subjects? I'm not sure, but I feel there are some parallels at least.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 30.08.20 16:30

Nightshade, since your reply is shorter I'll reply to it briefly that, overall, to that general view, I definitely agree with you, and share the same view exactly. However, the use of terminology is different. To me these robotic humans are not worthy to be called "undead", nor to hold the immense power of the essence of "undeath", where I raise and elevate such notion, concept and status, in my own mind and formulated expression of reasoning, to the likes of those who are in contact with the lands of the realms beyond and the energies of death, raising their frequency and vibration to such a high level of intensity that they pierce mere mortal life and ascend into a higher place beyond (however precaution is necessary for such idealizations upon the formulation of knowledge or just information that can be practically applied or indicated towards, where one does not wish to take it too far and imbalance oneself and thus lend oneself somewhat psychotic or whatever else, due to wrong experimentation and irresponsible practice lacking carefulness, balance, healthiness and integrity of correct procedure; and these kinds of things I doubt will come in the mere blink of an eye of a wishful thought or random experiment, anyways, nor even be accessible to all who seek it, if they'd at all want to seek it in the first place when it carries such implications of a nature that they might be unprepared for as a reality they're yet not able to handle; or if it's just a condition of a certain form of life being metaphysically hampered in some way, which might not sound so attractive either, after all, but which is just a side thought of mine and not actually what I necessarily believe it is). Of such, however, I cannot speak much, as that is not directly my state, but part of my theoretical understanding, only partially derived from some of my intense mystical experiences but that haven't been stable or constant really. So, to me, "undeath" is a form of mystical state of otherness in the meaning of being somewhat estranged from mundane life and worldly values of how people often feel, think and reason about life, in a profound way of viewing it as if you were in the spirit world but yet encapsulated within a body - and if not externally then at least internally in their own mind and consciousness - as well as owing to a "dark" form of enlightenment, if it at all can be called as such, but in the meaning of the energies being closely related to those realms of living death, if that makes any sense, as well as the illumination that bears a psychological feeling of something different. But it is indeed a state of intensified life-energies but just that they've kind of transcended "normal" living, which indeed would be robotic but for which I'd say there are intermediate stages in that process of ascension, which I'm not sure all of you will agree with me upon, but if it's indeed an ascension at all and not an abnormal condition, however this is some form of my understanding right now. Hope it adds some food for thought. It might have different causes but it makes me wonder about it as it's something I find deeply interesting. I'm curious if anyone can relate to this type of experience, or if it's just me and I'll have to isolate it to some other factors, however.

And, now I also read your reply above, Ramla-Meryt, to which I'll say that there is much worthwhile to consider and contemplate under the light of what you wrote in many of those paragraphs, some of which might even answer certain questions posed by me here in my own long paragraph above or resolve those queries in certain ways. But I'll have to return tomorrow if I'll have any more elaborate ideas or thoughts upon the matter of what you wrote, but very good insights nevertheless, so thank you for sharing.

Jonathan, about envy, if there are indeed people who envy me, which I'd consider flattering but nothing I want them to do nor feel they even need to do, as I probably have more problems than they do, I'd say that it's a fruitless pursuit to envy those others whom might be acting in a certain way or being expressive in some manner, as all that is cultivated within your own uniqueness and true individuality is what will bear forth the fruit, paradoxically, of precisely what you envied, where the paradoxical relation resolves and left is only a clear view of being able to just bring forward in yourself whatever you want and focus upon, but through time, perseverance and effort; the other person has become a sign or an indication of what you can develop within yourself, to different capacities (but we're all good at different things, so we should rejoice and remain firm in our own strengths - as well as watchful of our own weaknesses - but in a reasonable and moderate way of balanced humility and wisdom in the sense of an accurate self-assessment of one's own capabilities which also serves a very noteworthy strategic advantage in many ways but also as an over-exercised strength may become a kind of weakness in different ways such as if you overly rely upon it to the inflexibility of other approaches or methods), if you stop comparing yourself to them. Manifestation is greatly helped when the hindrances of limiting thoughts do not hamper the flow of manifestation due to a lack of thorough introspection and self-examination into unraveling those limiting ideas about oneself and one's potential. All comes with effort and time. The things one envied were things that one neglected to cultivate within oneself through strenuous hard work and perseverance, preferably with the right methods but which have be found, or developed by oneself through trial and error; however, one always has the possibility to cultivate those things which one desire within oneself and that will also yield the greatest of treasures as who you are is the most important thing, even to everything else as well. Some wise man said that character is everything, and when character is lost, everything is lost. [...]

[...] And the sooner one tries to do the inner work the better, rather than stalling it in a projection towards the future that never comes because the next day you repeat the same pattern of projecting it into the future, yet again, and that is not - or never - today so it never becomes done today, as the future is always pushed more and more further into the future, so it becomes an ongoing cycle of unfinished business and an unfulfilled life, sometimes even of misery. But that can be helped by taking heed to sound teachings and the inner wisdom that comes through self-reflection, earnest contemplation, meditation and even potentially other spiritual practices, or being facilitated by such, which can range and vary from numerous kinds, even including operations of certain magick but guided under a firm hand of responsibility and the higher focus of the Ideal, whatever that might be for oneself, in due course of self-transformation.

Void, I hope some of your questions could be helped in this reply I wrote to the others, but foremost in my response to Nightshade, or perhaps clearing things up a little. But if not, let me know, and I'll further elaborate. Smile
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Post by Maxx on 31.08.20 12:36

Nightshade wrote:Do you believe this sense of being dead while staying alive is absolute or in the other hand it's something that may be connected to your surroundings, life and the state of humanity? For example I experience something in a way opposed to this, at least in concept from a broad perspective, which is I look around me and most people feel dead while I'm alive. I see people living their robotic lives, the monotony of their daily routines, there is no spark in their eyes, no flame and a wickedness that is very visible on those embracing a vibrant life. Their hopes and desires attached to only mundane attainment, the empty gathering of riches, how to please their 9to5 boss who sees them as nothing but another statistic. This can't be generalized to everyone but in my perspective it applies to most people around me. So sometimes I feel like I'm experiencing an inversion of what you're describing, as if I'm a roaming soul filled with life, color and passion in a reality surrounded by zombies, the undead, people lacking any true deep form of awareness who only know how to react but not to think, not to question, not to explore, not to dare. No flame in the eyes...

Question I am wondering about....  Since you state you are involved with law enforcement, can I ask if you are describing all of your friendly personnel in law enforcement with the problems they become accustomed to seeing day in and day out.  Those poor people are looking at about 90% bad situations and most of the time are confronting the lower caste systems of criminals and the uneducated people.  |After a while, this really plays on the thinking process being surrounded with all those negative situations.
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Post by SorcierRog on 31.08.20 15:42

After reading the original post, I couldn’t help but think what was described was a culturaly specific shamanic initiation.

I have some experience with core shamanism having studied under Michael Harner back in the 90’s and practiced with groups and as a solitaire over many years.  In some shamanic initiations, the apprentice shaman will undergo a shamanic death experience. In some aboriginal traditions, he may even have to dig a mock grave and sleep in it overnight  where he will have his initiatory experiences - many of them terrifying (see Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy book by Mircea Eliade) While in a shamanic trance, the apprentice travels to the other world to meet the “powers that be” for his tradition that become his helping spirits. In this shamanic state of consciousness, the apprentice is “torn apart” by his helping spirit(s) and then reassembled by them to a new configuration where he will now have new shamanic powers (of sight for example).  This may happen several times over his lifetime, depending on how his helping spirits need to “upgrade” and reconfigure him (or her, of course).  

After this initiatory event, the apprentice shaman will come to realize the true nature of his being - a soul or spirit in a human body.  The newly reconfigured shaman knows his soul/spirit that can, under certain conditions, leave and take flight in either ordinary or non-ordinary world separate from the mundane human world.

For the apprentice, this is an initiation; a beginning. It is the start of his sacred work where he can travel to the other world and exercise his new powers and otherworldly contacts on behalf of his family and tribe to obtain information that is vital for their well being.  It is only after his shamanic death and subsequent realizations that he becomes useful to his people.
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Post by Maxx on 31.08.20 15:56

Familiar with Michael Harner as I have attended some group meetings in the 90s as well. Are you still working solitary in that area?
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Post by Nightshade on 31.08.20 16:42

Maxx wrote:
Nightshade wrote:Do you believe this sense of being dead while staying alive is absolute or in the other hand it's something that may be connected to your surroundings, life and the state of humanity? For example I experience something in a way opposed to this, at least in concept from a broad perspective, which is I look around me and most people feel dead while I'm alive. I see people living their robotic lives, the monotony of their daily routines, there is no spark in their eyes, no flame and a wickedness that is very visible on those embracing a vibrant life. Their hopes and desires attached to only mundane attainment, the empty gathering of riches, how to please their 9to5 boss who sees them as nothing but another statistic. This can't be generalized to everyone but in my perspective it applies to most people around me. So sometimes I feel like I'm experiencing an inversion of what you're describing, as if I'm a roaming soul filled with life, color and passion in a reality surrounded by zombies, the undead, people lacking any true deep form of awareness who only know how to react but not to think, not to question, not to explore, not to dare. No flame in the eyes...

Question I am wondering about....  Since you state you are involved with law enforcement, can I ask if you are describing all of your friendly personnel in law enforcement with the problems they become accustomed to seeing day in and day out.  Those poor people are looking at about 90% bad situations and most of the time are confronting the lower caste systems of criminals and the uneducated people.  |After a while, this really plays on the thinking process being surrounded with all those negative situations.

Could be related with that but I wasn’t talking about my professional life on this, more of a general realization concerning the people that surrounds us all.
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Post by Maxx on 31.08.20 16:47

Ok. then I read it wrong and made that connection so I was going to ask some more questions. I will let it go then. thanks
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth on 31.08.20 17:28

SorcierRog wrote:After reading the original post, I couldn’t help but think what was described was a culturaly specific shamanic initiation.

I have some experience with core shamanism having studied under Michael Harner back in the 90’s and practiced with groups and as a solitaire over many years.  In some shamanic initiations, the apprentice shaman will undergo a shamanic death experience. In some aboriginal traditions, he may even have to dig a mock grave and sleep in it overnight  where he will have his initiatory experiences - many of them terrifying (see Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy book by Mircea Eliade) While in a shamanic trance, the apprentice travels to the other world to meet the “powers that be” for his tradition that become his helping spirits. In this shamanic state of consciousness, the apprentice is “torn apart” by his helping spirit(s) and then reassembled by them to a new configuration where he will now have new shamanic powers (of sight for example).  This may happen several times over his lifetime, depending on how his helping spirits need to “upgrade” and reconfigure him (or her, of course).  

After this initiatory event, the apprentice shaman will come to realize the true nature of his being - a soul or spirit in a human body.  The newly reconfigured shaman knows his  soul/spirit that can, under certain conditions, leave and take flight in either ordinary or non-ordinary world separate from the mundane human world.

For the apprentice, this is an initiation; a beginning. It is the start of his sacred work where he can travel to the other world and exercise his new powers and otherworldly contacts on behalf of his family and tribe to obtain information that is vital for their well being.  It is only after his shamanic death and subsequent realizations that he becomes useful to his people.

Thank you for including a mention of that and those details, SorcierRog. That's an interesting subject. I remember having personal interests in but only a vague understanding of, and no deeper connections with, shamanism particularly after that time. Not much to comment, though, apart from that I'm finding a useful key in the observation of inner tides in relation to the recurrence of said experience which might be a helpful tool if consistently applied with focus and awareness.

Ramla-Meryt wrote:Feeling awakening to something higher while not truly being grounded in what is living makes sense, although I invite you to consider this - or attempt to do so - from a non-Western perspective where society and thus the priorities therein would be quite different. While truly seeing it from another cultural perspective without securely becoming a part of another culture in the process is not something readily accessed by such a medium as the internet, I think that some degree of detangling the perception of being dead to the realm of living versus being disillusioned with Western preoccupations might be useful. How much of what you are feeling dead to can truly be applied universally and how much is specific to the current age and setting?

The mortal experience is by no means universal, even if certain narratives are more dominant and total in terms of what they encompass than others. Even if you go on to self-examine and decide that you have been still awakened to a liminal state, I think that self-questioning is always something useful to engage in even if something of a risky rabbit-hole in itself.

This is an understandable question, but also a noteworthy one, where it can indeed be critically examined as varied ranges of self-interpretation might indeed yield a difference based upon cultural context, like Western versus non-Western perspectives. However, I don't know if it accurately ties in with the experience in the fullest sense since the energies of that type of place within oneself were undeniably felt to be of a different nature but it's elusive to grasp and hard to put fingers on as to its exact causes and real classifications. Maybe there's a point to what you say, though, and that it might even tie in with what SorcierRog mentioned about a culturally specific phenomenon as relates to something similar in kind to a form of shamanic initiation, in my paraphrased meaning, but that I can't fully ascertain nor personally claim.

I also agree on the point about self-questioning, that's always important.
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Post by SorcierRog on 31.08.20 21:36

Maxx wrote:Familiar with Michael Harner as I have attended some group meetings in the 90s as well.  Are you still working solitary in that area?

I’m still doing some occasional work, yes. Zoom is a wonderful thing. By the way, you know he is deceased now. And Sandra Ingerman who wrote the book on shamanic soul retrieval, left the Foundation for Shamanic Studies and is off on their own now. Some of us old guys are still around.
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Post by SorcierRog on 31.08.20 21:42

MysticLightShinethForth wrote:
Thank you for including a mention of that and those details, SorcierRog. That's an interesting subject. I remember having personal interests in but only a vague understanding of, and no deeper connections with, shamanism particularly after that time. Not much to comment, though, apart from that I'm finding a useful key in the observation of inner tides in relation to the recurrence of said experience which might be a helpful tool if consistently applied with focus and awareness.

Your welcome.  Shamanism is very old as you may know.  I’ve always thought that it’s a piece of the puzzle. I hope you can find great understanding from your experiences.
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Post by Maxx on 31.08.20 22:08

SorcierRog wrote:
Maxx wrote:Familiar with Michael Harner as I have attended some group meetings in the 90s as well.  Are you still working solitary in that area?

I’m still doing some occasional work, yes.  Zoom is a wonderful thing.  By the way, you know he is deceased now.  And Sandra Ingerman who wrote the book on shamanic soul retrieval, left the Foundation for Shamanic Studies and is off on their own now. Some of us old guys are still around.  

yes. he moved over in 2018. I hope he has a drum over there. As far as Sandra Ingerman I know she is working with a guy named Hank Wesselman who lives in Hawaii. Spiritwalker and his other two books I found very interesting. Talked with him a couple of times on the phone on two of his trips. Great guy. But I know all about Old Guys as I have a special appreciation for those now. lol. And Zoom, I use it in work all the time.
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Post by ardent on 11.09.20 16:21

The most interesting thing about the vampire stories is undivided sex in a trance state, who protects me on this? Top psychiatrists one of who is a female one who is also a pro Medium. I'd dare ask her when I arrive in the spirit side to ask if there are any vampires around, and the common answer being, we know nothing of such creatures. It's an extremely rare phenomena but teaches humanity a lesson, that all humans in their actuality are really more than just genes. I do not care about such horror, only the subhuman part.

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Post by Glasswalker on 11.09.20 19:18

I've thought about how to reply to this for many days now, and my resolution is still the same. Reading over this after it has been written, I don't think I'm adding very much... but I still wanted to participate. I will do my best to not abstract too much, but I think I can contribute to this discussion concerning both "death" and "undeath" in terms of defining those concepts a little further in the realm of an energetical point of view. The distinction between energy and concept I feel is important for a discussion such as this. To touch on the initial point concerning the Anubians, I think it would be best to discern the lines between use of death in spirit, and being made of death in spirit. But this takes some exposition of my individual gnosis concerning death (mixed with some outside gnosis) in the context of an energy type and its influence on energy as an inanimate force. As I don't believe what we have taken to calling "death", the energy, is "death" the concept.

First and foremost, there is an energy that many practitioners have taken to calling "death" because of its effect on other energies and due to its presence in energy when catastrophic damage is dealt to a framework inside of a living being. As a type inside a being's metaphysical structure, it is liminal and created through a process I've taken to referring to as "denaturing" in my observations (after the denaturing of proteins/acids, because it has a similar appearance in process, not because it has anything to actually do with proteins/acids) when the aforementioned damage causes cascading and is unable to be stopped. When this denaturing process breaks up the underlining structure which is integral to the framework of an energy, bursts of this material are created as a result of the "breaking up" of this structure. A byproduct. Collectively, this can create a moderate sized "cloud" of the energy, which we would observe in the macro as "death" energy, as this process is occurring.

The other source tends to be in the form of beings that are comprised of this material, themselves. The hows of such a coalescence tend to be more of an obscure gnosis in most circles that I've interacted with, but an educated guess on my behalf would be coalescence in areas with an incredibly dense concentration of the inanimate source. I don't personally put too much stock in "gods" creating all souls, but I know that certainly it is possible to consider a being made of the energy, under a "divine" interpretation, could indeed beget other beings of it. But I would first argue how the "divine" entity came into being in the first place. Digression.

Now, I think it reasonable to consider that the inanimate force can be wielded for a number of reasons. As you mentioned, Mystic, the Anubians might just be powerful necromancers. Those reasons include personal observations external of the self. A combination of factors, including one's own nature and skill, would determine whether or not one would be successful in such an endeavor. There exists the potentiality that a being does not need to be made of it in order to use it. Generation and acquisition would be outside the scope of this initial response mostly due to the fact that there are a number of potential methods and to discuss them in depth would make this post... far longer than I intend it. But when do posts ever remain as short as I intend them, aha Laughing .I go through this effort to bring forward a consideration concerning the Anubians (and other beings it is easy to associate with "death"):

Are they made of it, or do they just wield it? Association alone could not begin to answer this question. One would have to have contact, and thus be able to observe the nature of these beings. Also considering the human interpretation of Anpu, the same question is put forward. Is it truly his nature, or is it a result of use? Simply being associated with the concept of death does not truly speak to a being's inherent nature. Given how the human interpretation of these beings has changed over thousands of years, it is made very easy to make conflations in our stance of simple unknowing.

Although the macro is easy for most to just accept and nod along to, I find it unsatisfying.

Additionally I wouldn't necessarily consider a being made of the energy we have interpreted as "death" to be "undead". As a concept, undeath concerns a transition from life to death and then the state is static from that point onward. It requires a death to occur in that being, and for them to be altered by it, in order to be applicable under that framework. But we live, die, and reincarnate without the core nature of our being being altered by this process (if one, of course, not only believes but has experiences with incarnation in the first place. I won't speak for everyone here as all views are different). Would this process be different for some? Why? How?

Concerning the concept we have a lot more room to explore. To conceptualize and then apply the ideas of death and undeath is a lot different than interacting with the matter we have associated with them. They are abstracts, constructed of both learned and imparted knowledge born of the physical modes we (and others) are subject to. Their boundaries are fuzzy, like all abstract ideals, and the criteria concerning "undeath" will probably have much different interpretations from one person to another. They can also be mixed with and associated with other abstract concepts that the individual person finds appealing, or useful in interpreting other things. As Ramla and Rog mentioned well before I made this post, the concept of "death" and "rebirth" is very prominent in a lot of spiritual frameworks, and this concept includes the figurative dying of the old self to come into the new. Humans have such a strange way of looking at change...

In fact Ramla mentioned most of what I would mention myself in this section of my post. So I won't drone on too long here. Just that it's easy to make conflations between abstract concepts and more external forces, such as an energy or a nature itself. I do think there is some value in shifting one's perspective (in any way) in order to look at the world differently. In this way, the conceptual form of undeath could be quite valuable. But one would have to make sure that, when applying it to the self, it comes from a place of earnestness and not the result of some obscure or anthropocentric source (such as feeling alienated to society due to arbitrary factors or failings in one's social preformance). As this would likely not provide much, if any, growth in relation to the self. More so a source of conflict between the self and external factors and beings.
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Post by ardent on 12.09.20 13:20

Dear Glasswalker,
What a set of word usage on your part indeed.
A way to be respected by this site is to maintain an intelligent level of information.
I try to be brief and more meaningful as I can.
I am more interested in the original spirit in humans for all respects.

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Post by Maxx on 12.09.20 13:44

ardent wrote:The most interesting thing about the vampire stories is undivided sex in a trance state, who protects me on this?

I see that most of your posts involve sexual details or involvement with sexual activity.  I thought of you when I came across this statement talking about beings involved with this type of magic or participation in it......"it is an area of magic that is highly prone to attracting parasitical beings, and is also a dense and volatile creative energy that when misdirected (intentionally or by accident) it can trigger mental health issues in some people."  

Do you feel there are any areas of truth in this statement?
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