Can Gods be a duality?

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Post by xix 16.07.21 8:20

Hi,
a question that was kind of confusing me for a while: are Asetians and Sethians a duality?

There are many passages suggesting it might be so, but none directly. Also, the duality is at higher level of existence understood only as two sides of the same thing, so for example one needs to be both light and dark (it sort of unites).

And yet the Egyptian Pantheon is still looking like composed of dualities, Asetians fighting Sethians, and Anubis being born from Nepthys and Osiris. Because of that, I would probably agree to duality, but I am very unsure.

Some citations that might aid in discussion:

"At the same time Aset, being the crown of magick and mastering many secrets unknown to Her brothers, wielded the powers of creation without being limited by the transcended fusion of essences in duality, unlike the magic of Nephthys and Osiris ignited in the creation of Anubis. " (VT 80)

"The Higher Self is the highest expression of each individual while still incarnated in the realm of flesh, but not the ultimate reality as that is embodied through his Divine Self above the gates of Da'ath, being part of the indefinable mystery of the Duat; the land of the divinity and the highest vibrational plane before the plunge into nothingness, a place without positive or negative, past or future, but where all shapes and forms unify as One." (VT 613; The Book of Orion "From Purity to Dust")

"These two forces that form the edification of oneness in everything are present in every aspect of nature and manifested existence, making it complete." (VT 212)

"Such are the cycles of life and death just like darkness becomes the liberating force of blinding light. Balance is maintained in diverging and opposing manifestations as secrecy is only possible through the loud voices of those posing in the spotlight, unknowingly serving us all. " (VT 288)

This question, however abstract it seems to be, it is of great significance, as it's an attempt to understand this unity at the center of the being, that is so important in Asetianism (Tiet). The essences of the divine are said to be incomprehensible, but duality would suggest an existence of some continuums and so even classifications. That why it feels a little simplistic. But there is similar duality in India: Additi and Diti (Adityas and Daityas).

So, can some divine essences be understood as dualities or are they incomprehensible and unique as singularities in themselves? Or?..

xix
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Post by xix 16.07.21 11:35

Even more interesting citation:
"In this cradle of creation, thought imbalance and fusion of opposing singularities, chaos was set in motion as the wheel of time that gives birth to eternal Fire rotated and from this nothingness a primeval consciousness emerged: the formless abyss of Amon also known as Atum." (VT 73)

At the beginning of my study of Asetianism I thought that divine essences are transcending the dualities, as they are united in them. But since the duality is present in such basic mechanisms of universe like creation of the world... More importantly, the citation suggests that opposites are singularities, just as souls and divine essences.

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Post by MysticLightShinethForth 16.07.21 12:54

I personally don't see them as a duality, like Yin and Yang, because in such a case they would complement each other, like night and day, which to me seems strongly untrue. They are more like opposed forces but not in the sense of a principal duality. Just like the Soviet Union and the United States of America during the Cold War weren't a duality but hated foes although here applicable to a far deeper context than we can imagine and much more complicated as being the conflict between two Elder Gods. At least that's my view and I wouldn't really think anything else. Incompatible energy fingerprints and opposed on that spectrum it seems, however, but not in the sense of composing a principal duality like those inherent to the structure of existence, like negative and positive charges or night and day and light and darkness. I'd label it more as a profound "disagreement" but on a much higher level. Something inconceivable. However I would say and theorize that maybe something has been spawned of this. Something akin to energetic dynamics within humanity overshadowing it and the globe found reflected through different cultures and religions, as well as their variables like the shifting sands of customs, teachings and traditions, since these are two very powerful forces and deeply influential I believe. It might take the semblance of a kind of "pseudo-duality", if you excuse the term, but not a real duality as fundamental laws of existence. But that's, as always, just my perspective.

Welcome back to the forum, by the way, xix. Hope all's good over there.
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Post by xix 16.07.21 13:42

Thanks Mystic,
It was a while, wasn't it? I feel much deeper connection with Asetianism after pondering on such philosophical questions on my own. But it seems I've reached my limit now Wink

I like your perspective. They really don't seem to complement each other. But it still doesn't explain why are they so exactly opposite in many ways, eg. Asetians are elitist and more orderly while Sethians are very chaotic, one is red other violet, one dark other light. It just doesn't seem to be a 'mere coincidence'. I am not sure how you picture all this, but I thought I that it is coming from within of the gods that they seek land like Kemet, and so it happens that it's the land of extreme forces (infinite dark intense fire, blinding light, death, solar forces etc.), and so the Gods choose it since that matched. But maybe there still is some external world-level mechanism?

What I mean is, don't their essences compliment each other in the world, just like other forces do in souls? That would make them kind of dualities.
Maybe the balance is about the internal one, and every soul can still vary in its balance in relation to the world somehow.

But the thing is, are they really exact opposites of one another?
Maybe they just appear to be so, not being exact ones i.e. there would surely be more gods like Seth that Aset Ka would have fought, but this one was in Kemet e.g. Hindu goddess Diti. But maybe Seth is special for AK.

xix
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth 16.07.21 15:06

xix wrote: I like your perspective. They really don't seem to complement each other. But it still doesn't explain why are they so exactly opposite in many ways, eg. Asetians are elitist and more orderly while Sethians are very chaotic, one is red other violet, one dark other light.

I honestly don't know too much about the Sethians apart from the brief understanding we have of them here but in my mind it would make sense for them to also be very orderly whilst the Asetians can be great agents of chaos as reflected through their initiatory magick. So I believe both forces have developed high capabilities for both order as well as chaos since the Aset Ka also is a highly secretive Order with paramount security on all levels that reflects a very powerful orderliness in addition to their mastery of chaos. And the Red Order of Seth wouldn't really be capable to rule and dominate so much in this last Djehuty of the Crocodile if they weren't also highly orderly in a way. It reflects great discipline, power and control even if for nefarious purposes and by Asetianists regarded as highly dishonorable in terms of their ways; seeking ultimate power where "the end justifies the means" which totally forsakes the higher honor spoken of by the Asetians in my view.

Also that both forces are dark. Not one light and the other dark. In fact one could say the Sethians came with far more blinding light to the world whilst the Asetians were ever adamant in their inscrutable darkness to use the kind of terminology as Master Marques.
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Post by xix 16.07.21 16:08

Surely both forces are those of chaos, but it is Seth that is the personification of chaos, not Aset (AB "Chaos"). So I suppose Sethians still more chaotic. Probably up to discussion taking into consideration Asetian nature as catalysts of change.

As for the light and dark, clearly two side have both, but the ways that identify with them and the general terminology is opposite.

Seth operates "In the heat of the day and under blinding light" (VT 87) while Asetians are weakened by the Sun and feel far stronger connection with Moon (and even cold). That looks like a duality.

What I mean is, even in these internal dualities there still seems to be some kind of symmetry.

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Post by MysticLightShinethForth 16.07.21 16:54

I think it then has more to do with the kinds of forces that they align with, like Ra being clearly more in favor of the Sethian side as it appears and Thoth being on the Asetian. Also not to mention the colossal confrontation between Aset and Ra which might be why the Asetians are sensitive to the sunlight in fact as a distant ancient metaphysical, divine echo thereof. Like we could infer that this apparent duality you see between Asetians and Sethians is not really them being a duality but that they align with opposite forces on certain dualities, like Ra and Thoth. Even they aren't really dualities I'd say, though, but manifest reflections of underlying polarities, like the cold and introspective darkness of the Moon and the arrogant and scorching life-heat of the Sun - all mirroring higher cosmic processes from the cosmogonic descent as recounted in the Book of Nun in my view. Just like the Hermetic axiom, "As Above, so Below".
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Post by xix 16.07.21 17:30

I suppose that it must really be the case, they do align on certain polarities. But the thing is, that they align in opposing ways in many dualities at the same time: violet-red, Sun-Moon. So that might point to the fact that they themselves are also a duality.

As for Ra, I think that the events involving Gods and their metaphysical nature are connected. Actually the confrontation of Aset and Ra is probably a manifestation of their energies and so it's timeless above the veil. What I mean is, causation goes the reverse way, time/events are manifested from energy incompatibilities. I deduce that from VT 284 "The true reason for this intolerance is however more metaphysical than spiritual and it is related with how the energy system of Asetians handles the metabolic processing of certain forms of radiation, being particularly sensitive to specific vibrations".

But it feels too schematic, would these essences be so unpredictable if there are opposites? Why would Seth even attempt to overthrow Aset if he knew that his domain are masses and ignorance found in Djehuty of Crocodile, not open confrontation during the divine Sep Tepy. The same goes for Aset-Ra conflict. Even ignoring these points, it still feels simplistic to assume that Gods are conforming to any schemes of sorts. It would just feel right after reading the works by Luis Marques. On the other hand, maybe there is just some higher level of acceptance required.

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Post by xix 16.07.21 18:07

Additionally, take into consideration other Gods from different cultures also being connected to Sun and neither being so dominating in Sethian way nor arrogant like Ra. That would be Additi from Hindu culture and possibly Peruvian Viracocha (not sure). Additi and her bloodline are often described as more subtle than Children of Diti, probably comparable to Asetians (maybe a little less limited in physical universe). Also, they represent light while Diti is darkness so that polarity is obviously reversed. So polarities do not explain that much about Gods. And they are not always united in every one of them (since clearly some are more Sun than Moon). Right?.. Wink Actually even Horus has connection with Sun, if I understood properly  VT 92 "No longer the child of the Moon he brought forth the solar flare and empowered the four elements of nature, so by the side of his nameless sisters that defined the course of history."

I think that Asetians  ('initiation') would be friendly towards Adityas and their 'enlightenment', even with the symbolism of Sun being associated with them. 

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Post by VedantaBlack 18.07.21 19:06

Aset is a duality within Herself. When She breathed into the Duat, Three essences formed. They are the three parts within Her divine Self. Together, they are called Horus the Elder, manifest Essence of Aset. ( paraphrased from text in the Book of Orion)

One sided, with no duality, Seth received no such Great Gift as Aset did from Her ancestors.


His opposition is not opposite of Aset, as she opposes Herself and Her family evolves through this dualism and chaotic rebirth. The essence of Dominant Earth is not necessarily opposite to the divine essence of Aset rather an integral part of the tradition that is taught to be overcome and Risen Above through the first initiation of the Sarcophagus of the Flesh.

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Post by Lightseeker 24.07.21 12:05

Yes, as I have explained in other posts, I believe very much that the Asetians and the Sethians in a way complement each other, not in opposition, but in a necessary symbiosis. An old Gnostic fragment of the Genesis says thus (I am freely translating it from German bc that is the version I find in our archives): "In the beginning, the Elohim (Gods) spoke "Let there be light. But with the first ray of light, also the first shadow of darkness entered the world."
As long as the world of creation exists, duality (or better polarity) must exist within it). Only when one rises above the mental plane, does the unity of duality become apparent to the Initiate.
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Post by Lightseeker 24.07.21 12:08

xix wrote:Surely both forces are those of chaos, but it is Seth that is the personification of chaos, not Aset (AB "Chaos"). So I suppose Sethians still more chaotic. Probably up to discussion taking into consideration Asetian nature as catalysts of change.

Wrong, Set and the ROS stand for order against chaos. Of course, Asetians do not want this order, so they oppose it. Thus, the endless "war" between the AK and the ROS.
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Post by MysticLightShinethForth 26.07.21 21:09

The general, civilized take on "order against chaos", in this day and age, and perhaps for some time in the Western civilization (the rest of the world's history of which I'm not too well aware, however), in particular from the Roman era, I think, if we look up on the kind of governance given by - and strongly classifying the hierarchical and imperialistic structures of - these empires, the idea of "order against chaos" is generally taken as a heroic notion, like of good versus evil, and the triumph of the light of day over the darkness of night; the bringer of hope out of the misery of despair. That, to me, sounds, in a cryptic and veiled manner, like very Sethian ideals, indeed - like the use of the blinding light of monotheistic religions to bring the hope of salvation or the light of redemption, by some external god or authority figure, like the vast religious onslaught of brainwashing by Christianity throughout the centuries. Rather than the liberation found within through the venturing into and daring of confrontation with their own darkness in maturity, balance, strength and honesty, as well as the self-empowerment in one's own cause, placing all power outside and not within. But I could be wrong. Although, I believe, a system of control, indeed... upon people's minds...

However as was mentioned here by the contrasting "ideological" (for lack of better terms) forces used by Asetians and Sethians respectively, the battle is not one of light versus darkness, really, but in my view - and this is just my interpretation - of deeply rooted and strongly entrenched ideological forces on sometimes religious, other times more directly spiritual, or other philosophical, levels, like the making use of certain forces of mythological structure and presentation and other more deeply ideologically informing agents, like cultural variables and political factors, for different purposes, as we can see in the Asetians favoring the cooling light and darkness of the Moon over their empire along the Nile, in ancient days, and the Sethians favoring the scorching heat of the Sun, and so perhaps speaking of different forces and their use, in a way specialized for their own higher agendas, cryptic goals and obscure purposes, mirrored and reflected through different strategical choices as well as influences upon world history.

Also what was mentioned about the idea of "order against chaos", as described initially, here I'd argue that the heroic connotation to it is definitely not a correct notion, when speaking in this context truthfully and not using the veils and agendas of deception. Order can be tyrannical, then. It can be totalitarian. It can organize society in strict hierarchies that conform to obedience and follow the dictates of their "leaders" higher up. An efficient system of control, very imperialistic, militaristic, fascistic and dictatorial, in a way, but not necessarily a bad thing in terms of its innate principle of adherence and cohesion as I reckon any military, for instance, will have to use the same protocol, whether it is in present or ancient days, like the times of Sep Tepy and the Asetian Empire. The issue becomes when it's applied to the whole of society and political as well as religious structures but in more specific and rigidly authoritarian examples like the control by the Church during many centuries which wielded enormous political and religious influence and sometimes even military power, I believe, at one or another point, without toleration of many other things like differing faiths and/or traditions and with a great - rather perceived to be - nefarious iron fist of control over the society. Not the kinds of deeper intricacies of initiatory structure to the temples of old necessarily, however, I reckon. So, there's also that factor to weigh into consideration regarding this issue of what I mentioned with the value within "the innate principle of adherence and cohesion" and how it applies to these differing structures that echo different ideological influences as key mechanisms of control, or the lack thereof, namely the extent of its severity; the varying degrees on the spectrum of classical liberalism contra authoritarianism, speaking in quite political terms however...

Just my own thoughts.
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